Not King of Bokeh? Summicron-M 35mm v.4

[F456]

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Sellers in particular often promote the Summicron 35mm v.4 as 'King of Bokeh'.

Did I read somewhere that this phrase came about as tongue in cheek and is really without foundation?  Not that it bothers me much as I find the whole bokeh business of little interest practically, but it would be of passing interest to know what the reality is in this case. Any time one of these lenses appears on the bay it seems to come now with this description!

[Alberti]

Most often, bokeh is looked upon as the rings or forms in the background, the amount of blur or solidity.

Especially 5-blade diaphragmas give a hash look at some moments, is my experience. OK, that for general.

The 35/v4 ELC that I have has a nice background. It is sort of painterly. Not 'as tongue in cheek' at all. The background resembles as a family trait, that of the 'steel rim'.

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[Alberti]

But what is very important too is the mid-distance blur, the amount with which the object (subject) stands out, is important. The v4 is very good in that. And that is why I like the lens so much; as well as the slightly-stopped down blur.  

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here the ELC at F4

[jaapv]

This nickname was coined by a photographer blogger who later admitted he had not even shot the lens wide open... It caught on, but has no relationship to reality. 

[williamj]

57 minutes ago, F456 said:

Sellers in particular often promote the Summicron 35mm v.4 as 'King of Bokeh'.

Did I read somewhere that this phrase came about as tongue in cheek and is really without foundation?  Not that it bothers me much as I find the whole bokeh business of little interest practically, but it would be of passing interest to know what the reality is in this case. Any time one of these lenses appears on the bay it seems to come now with this description!

As @jaapv says, it was Mike Johnston who named it as such in 1997 in luminous landscape and has repented at length see https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/a-new-king-of-bokeh.html but it is a marketers dream so you'll never get rid of it on the used market. It wasn't tongue in cheek. Cheers.

Edited February 20, 2024 by williamj

[newtoleica]

Too busy for my taste, but the name has stuck...

[Jeff S]

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4 hours ago, williamj said:

As @jaapv says, it was Mike Johnston who named it as such in 1997 in luminous landscape and has repented at length see https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/a-new-king-of-bokeh.html but it is a marketers dream so you'll never get rid of it on the used market. It wasn't tongue in cheek. Cheers.

A caption in Photo Techniques magazine in 1997.

Be also popularized the spelling of bokeh.

Jeff

[Martin B]

Owning and using this 35/2.0 version IV lens since about 8 years. It's background blur is okay but IMO nothing special. I like this lens for two other properties: its size and that it works well when adapted to older versions of Sony FF MLCs with thicker sensor stack (the 35/2.0 ASPH version I does not work there - was formerly the main reason why I bought this pre-ASPH lens instead!). One major thing I dislike with this lens is related to its rectangular lens hood: the hood cap sits very loosely on the hood and can easily fall off. This cap is not easy to replace when lost. 

I also have the Leica 35/2.4 ASPH Summarit-M lens which is more modern and comes with a very nice background blur, too. For a bit more vintage look, I highly recommend the Cosina Voigtlander 35/1.2 lens. Its background blur especially wide open is fantastic. 

 

Sony A7R, adapted Leica 35/2.0 version IV lens @ f/2.8

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Leica M-E 240, Leica 35/2.0 version IV lens @ f/2.0

Edited February 20, 2024 by Martin B

[RexGig0]

The Summicron-M 35mm v.4 does not produce the type of bokeh that I tend to favor, though it certainly has other good qualities. Yes, I am a heretic, but I have never felt an urge to acquire any specific version of the 35mm Summicron lenses, based upon images that I have seen posted on-line. If I were to buy any of them,  I would probably simply choose the one with the least distortion being the deciding factor. To be clear, we each have our own opinion regarding favored bokeh, so, I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right or correct. Notably, the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, the lens which lured me to add the Leica M system, six years ago, is my standard for pleasing-to-the-eye bokeh.

When Leica advertising indicated that the Re-Edition Classic Steel Rim 35mm Summilux lens was the true “king of bokeh,” I found that I could not disagree, if we confine this title only to 35mm Leica M lenses. I also noticed that “asking” prices, in the USA, for Version IV Summicron lenses, started at about the official Leica price for a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Summilux-M Classic 35mm lens. I did finally buy a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Classic Summilux 35mm lens, though not really because of its bokeh.

[250swb]

The lens is good, it’s just that Mike Johnston inadvertently turned it into a monster. I hate to think how many people paid too much for one over the years. 

[F456]

13 hours ago, jaapv said:

This nickname was coined by a photographer blogger who later admitted he had not even shot the lens wide open... It caught on, but has no relationship to reality. 

Thank you, Jaap; that is what I must have read.

[RexGig0]

18 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

The Summicron-M 35mm v.4 does not produce the type of bokeh that I tend to favor, though it certainly has other good qualities. Yes, I am a heretic, but I have never felt an urge to acquire any specific version of the 35mm Summicron lenses, based upon images that I have seen posted on-line. If I were to buy any of them,  I would probably simply choose the one with the least distortion being the deciding factor. To be clear, we each have our own opinion regarding favored bokeh, so, I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right or correct. Notably, the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, the lens which lured me to add the Leica M system, six years ago, is my standard for pleasing-to-the-eye bokeh.

When Leica advertising indicated that the Re-Edition Classic Steel Rim 35mm Summilux lens was the true “king of bokeh,” I found that I could not disagree, if we confine this title only to 35mm Leica M lenses. I also noticed that “asking” prices, in the USA, for Version IV Summicron lenses, started at about the official Leica price for a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Summilux-M Classic 35mm lens. I did finally buy a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Classic Summilux 35mm lens, though not really because of its bokeh.

I should correct myself, by saying that I was only writing in reference to the non-APO Summicron-M 35mm lenses. I do not spend much time looking at images captured by the APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH, lest I be successfully tempted to raid my retirement savings.  

[F456]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:53 PM, Martin B said:

Owning and using this 35/2.0 version IV lens since about 8 years. It's background blur is okay but IMO nothing special. I like this lens for two other properties: its size and that it works well when adapted to older versions of Sony FF MLCs with thicker sensor stack (the 35/2.0 ASPH version I does not work there - was formerly the main reason why I bought this pre-ASPH lens instead!). One major thing I dislike with this lens is related to its rectangular lens hood: the hood cap sits very loosely on the hood and can easily fall off. This cap is not easy to replace when lost. 

I also have the Leica 35/2.4 ASPH Summarit-M lens which is more modern and comes with a very nice background blur, too. For a bit more vintage look, I highly recommend the Cosina Voigtlander 35/1.2 lens. Its background blur especially wide open is fantastic. 

 

Sony A7R, adapted Leica 35/2.0 version IV lens @ f/2.8

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Leica M-E 240, Leica 35/2.0 version IV lens @ f/2.0

Thank you for taking the trouble to post your photos. Like you I share the compactness / small size reason for having this lens and in the shop any doubts were dispelled by the fact that the lens really does seem virtually unused, and also more superficially, it is of a similar date and similar Midland Ontario origin as the Canadian M4-P I have. So this meterless rig is a very nice compact no nonsense set up for many uses and works very well with a bounce non-TTL auto flash when I take indoor pictures that won't work with just natural lighting. The great thing of course with indoor pictures and some artificial lighting whether from the flash or the surroundings or both is that the lighting levels don't change so I don't have to wait for the sun and the clouds to fall in line for me! (Like you I have the mk.1 ASPH as well but as I don't use the lenses for anything digital the problem you mentioned is n/a.)

[F456]

On 2/20/2024 at 5:21 PM, RexGig0 said:

The Summicron-M 35mm v.4 does not produce the type of bokeh that I tend to favor, though it certainly has other good qualities. Yes, I am a heretic, but I have never felt an urge to acquire any specific version of the 35mm Summicron lenses, based upon images that I have seen posted on-line. If I were to buy any of them,  I would probably simply choose the one with the least distortion being the deciding factor. To be clear, we each have our own opinion regarding favored bokeh, so, I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right or correct. Notably, the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, the lens which lured me to add the Leica M system, six years ago, is my standard for pleasing-to-the-eye bokeh.

When Leica advertising indicated that the Re-Edition Classic Steel Rim 35mm Summilux lens was the true “king of bokeh,” I found that I could not disagree, if we confine this title only to 35mm Leica M lenses. I also noticed that “asking” prices, in the USA, for Version IV Summicron lenses, started at about the official Leica price for a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Summilux-M Classic 35mm lens. I did finally buy a new Re-Edition Steel Rim Classic Summilux 35mm lens, though not really because of its bokeh.

Though as hinted in my original post I am not much bothered by bokeh I would agree with your comments. I have had, with just short intervals in between, three different units of the main production Summilux 35 that was discontinued in the early/mid 1990s and those lenses have given me my best pictures, helped by a printer friend who sadly has for some years been too ill to continue his work. I also happen to love the Summilux ASPH 35 (first version that came after the limited run Summilux Aspherical lens) which is quite different in character but lovely too — I used that for a time for indoor drama and a self-motivated seaside reportage In a waning English north-western town; that was on my first and only digital Leica model, the M8, so it gave a cropped image which I liked so much that I have since used 50mm increasingly. Sometime I might go back and study the various 35mm lens pictures for their bokeh effects but they don't move me as much as the success of the subject matter itself.

Edited February 23, 2024 by F456

[F456]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:38 AM, Alberti said:

But what is very important too is the mid-distance blur, the amount with which the object (subject) stands out, is important. The v4 is very good in that. And that is why I like the lens so much; as well as the slightly-stopped down blur.  

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here the ELC at F4

Thank you for your pictures and I enjoyed seeing what you could do with the lens. It was really just confirmation of the origin of the anecdote that I was after but I certainly like this Summicron. However for me bokeh is not a factor that comes into my lens choice. Well, except for the Noct-Nikkor at full aperture (f/ 1.2) that I was using when slide film was still mainstream! 

Edited February 23, 2024 by F456

[Scrapbook]

The Summicron "King of Bokeh" is a nice lens. But king of Bokeh? I don't think so.

M10 + Summicron M 35/2 IV

Claus

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Edited November 18, 2024 by Scrapbook

[Sebastian S]

Summilux 35mm preAsph is the king i answer to 

[jaapv]

On 2/20/2024 at 4:53 PM, Martin B said:

One major thing I dislike with this lens is related to its rectangular lens hood: the hood cap sits very loosely on the hood and can easily fall off. This cap is not easy to replace when lost. 

Doesn't the 12585(H) fit?

[Robert Ardinger]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:53 AM, Martin B said:

One major thing I dislike with this lens is related to its rectangular lens hood: the hood cap sits very loosely on the hood and can easily fall off. This cap is not easy to replace when lost.

On the "auction" site there is a listing for "new" caps for the rectangular hood (search for: "Leica Hood Cap for Elmarit-M 2,8/28mm, Summicron-M 2,0/35mm ASPH 14043"), seller is "maxingxin" (China).  Fits just as well/poorly as the original, not sure if it is an original Leica made one (not sure why a cap for an old hood would come in a silver box but ignorance is bliss).  The Match Technical one works much better.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

The old 35/2 v4 hood (12524) had no cap at all. The 14043 hood cap was not made for it and will fall off too easily. The hood with cap is the later 12526 for 35/2 asph v1. Not to say that the 14043 hood cap will never fall off though. Its safer place is in the box.

12524:

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12526:

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by lct