Tailwagger Posted February 23, 2024 Share #41 Posted February 23, 2024 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 25 minutes ago, fleeja said: Fair point, but there are an awful lot of very small bodies with a lot of tech inside that keep pushing things forward, look at the example photo in the post above. Just saying its not possible isnt really pushing engineering principles forward, which is kind of what Leica is always saying they do. A7CR series has full frame, EVF, IBIS in a body that makes an M look big, Hasselblad X2D has a medium format sensor, IBIS, and EVF in a body thats about the same thickness as an M. I know both have new mirrorless lens mounts with less registration depth but still.... I never said that such things aren't achievable. In the past Leica has... but sure, they likely will find a palatable solution someday in the future. My point solely was that losing the shutter can't play much, if any, role given that the lens registration distance is unalterable. Edited February 23, 2024 by Tailwagger 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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thrid Posted February 23, 2024 Share #42 Posted February 23, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, ivohula said: I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses. I really don't see how the sensor in the M11 is behind or not among the best on the market. It's 60MP and has almost 15 stops of range. For what it's worth DXO mark rates it as the highest performing full frame sensor out there. I do agree that Leica has to get their act together on the firmware bugs. I have not experienced any of these issues myself, but it is the most expensive full frame camera on the market and it should not freeze. That's just not acceptable. I felt the same way about my 240 and the green shadows, which was ridiculous and as far as I know never was corrected. But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M. The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features. Sony, Canon, Nikon all make very, very different cameras than the M, so I really don't see how they compare. Fuji is somewhere in-between, but I own a X100 and it's not the same shooting experience as the M series. If anything I found the countless buttons and focus by wire so annoying that I retired it and stuck with my M10 (now M11) and Nikon DSLR. What you are describing is an entirely different camera, basically an SL or a Q that takes M lenses. And that would be fine. I just don't understand why so many people want to turn the M series into something it isn't, when what they are asking for pretty much already exists in another form and we would lose the one camera that is not like every other one on the market. If it's about the lenses you can even stick your M lenses on some of these EVF wonders from other manufacturers. Anyhow. Edited February 23, 2024 by thrid 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted March 29, 2024 Share #43 Posted March 29, 2024 On 2/23/2024 at 9:29 AM, charlesphoto99 said: Don't 'global shutters' impact the dynamic range of the sensor? Leica will not (hopefully) want to impact ultimate image quality for whatever it is a global shutter would bring (just more electronic b.s. crammed into the M to go wrong imo). From reviews of the new Sony with the global shutter, it appears image quality does suffer. I dont typically shoot at high frame rates so I fail to see any benefit to a global shutter ... wonder how much sensor burn we will see with such a thing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted March 29, 2024 Share #44 Posted March 29, 2024 On 2/23/2024 at 1:33 PM, thrid said: I really don't see how the sensor in the M11 is behind or not among the best on the market. It's 60MP and has almost 15 stops of range. For what it's worth DXO mark rates it as the highest performing full frame sensor out there. I do agree that Leica has to get their act together on the firmware bugs. I have not experienced any of these issues myself, but it is the most expensive full frame camera on the market and it should not freeze. That's just not acceptable. I felt the same way about my 240 and the green shadows, which was ridiculous and as far as I know never was corrected. But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M. The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features. I just don't understand why so many people want to turn the M series into something it isn't, when what they are asking for pretty much already exists in another form and we would lose the one camera that is not like every other one on the market. If it's about the lenses you can even stick your M lenses on some of these EVF wonders from other manufacturers. Anyhow. yes, on all points I dont get it either. I loved the shooting experience on my M3 and love that i can get it in digital Every other digital camera I owned had "issues" so no-one is perfect it seems! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted March 29, 2024 Share #45 Posted March 29, 2024 On 2/23/2024 at 8:33 PM, thrid said: But I really don't know if all of the tech like IBIS, EVF etc could or should even be integrated into the M. Also, at some point it would no longer be an M. The M is a unique camera in the world of photography and in some ways the last of its kind. Why not just let it be what it is instead of trying to change it into something it isn't? There are plenty of other options out there that offer all of these features. It seems inevitable that Leica will have to split the M series in two: An M Classic and an EVF-M. The M Classic could benefit from taking a couple of steps back and relax. Then they could put all sorts of high-tech features into the EVF-M. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksrhee Posted March 29, 2024 Share #46 Posted March 29, 2024 10 minutes ago, evikne said: It seems inevitable that Leica will have to split the M series in two: An M Classic and an EVF-M. The M Classic could benefit from taking a couple of steps back and relax. Then they could put all sorts of high-tech features into the EVF-M. I wouldn't count on that. The M market is small and splitting that market makes no economic sense. Those folks who want EVF in a traditional SLR system have the SL system, and those M users who want the EVF can add the optional EVF. Only time will tell whether Leica will come up with something similar to the interchangeable Q, but even that might be a wishful thinking. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxj Posted March 31, 2024 Share #47 Posted March 31, 2024 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'd say the following is coming in the future (next years) (as someone with no insider information) just guess work so take with some humour and a grain of salt. We won't probably see any innovation until the M12. M11-D M11 Reporter M11 Ghost Hodinkee Edition (Some kind of anniversary film camera like an MP with M3 homeage) M12 (and a variant with EVF or hybrid whatever it'll be called) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 31, 2024 Share #48 Posted March 31, 2024 (edited) On 2/23/2024 at 11:08 AM, fleeja said: Global shutters currently do but stacked sensors dont. Theres really no need for a global shutter on an M. The advantages are mostly for video and or flash sync which arent really use cases for the M anyways. The 1/250th read out speed of current stacked sensors work perfectly fine for high speed sports without distortion and would also be suitable for an M (or all leica cameras given the price) Actually a global shutter sensor would be a big deal for the M line, since Leica had to resort to the Rube Goldberg open-closed-open-closed-open shutter shuffle to get matrix metering into a camera, which doesn't have an EVF and is not an SLR design. It works, but it's a kludge and a lot of people are not thrilled with the odd shutter cycle. So, if there is any camera on the market that would benefit from a global shutter it's the Leica M with an OVF. But, the global shutter comes at a cost. Apparently you lose about 1 stop of sensitivity. But technology doesn't stand still and we undoubtably will see progress in that area. One way around it may be a sensor with simultaneous dual grain read on each receptor well. Basically a simultaneous bracketed exposure, with the second gain reading concentration on the highlights, that are combined on the fly into an HDR RAW file. Works like a charm in the Arri Alexa35, which gets a real 17+ stops of DR. This is not the same thing as a sensor with dual gain / two base iso sensitivity. Edited March 31, 2024 by thrid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 31, 2024 Share #49 Posted March 31, 2024 I use my Leicas as designed, but all this discussion does make me wonder why Leica in a future M at the current M11 size could not add IBIS at a minimum. Why can Sony put it in an A7C which is smaller than an M11 and it even has AF capabilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksrhee Posted March 31, 2024 Share #50 Posted March 31, 2024 6 minutes ago, algrove said: I use my Leicas as designed, but all this discussion does make me wonder why Leica in a future M at the current M11 size could not add IBIS at a minimum. Why can Sony put it in an A7C which is smaller than an M11 and it even has AF capabilities. They are two different types of cameras. The rangerfinder mechanism is not that small, and the real estate within the Leica M is premium. They would probably have to make a bigger M in order to do this, and I for one does not want to carry a bigger M camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted March 31, 2024 Share #51 Posted March 31, 2024 1 hour ago, ksrhee said: They are two different types of cameras. The rangerfinder mechanism is not that small, and the real estate within the Leica M is premium. They would probably have to make a bigger M in order to do this, and I for one does not want to carry a bigger M camera. Understand. I was not clear. I find it interesting that the Viso2 has IBIS built-in for focusing. Someone here suggested a super Viso3 with the highest quality EVF possible and still have IBIS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Rainey Posted June 19, 2024 Share #52 Posted June 19, 2024 It might not be applicable to Leica, but Red was able to master the Global Shutter with next to no dynamic range loss with the Komodo and Raptor-X. I extract photos from the Komodo and with a low shutter speed they have the most amazing motion blur, with high shutter speeds crisp as can be. Lightning strikes are sublime. They have massive cooling systems and power draw which might be difficult to match in a stills body. And the fact that Nikon now owns the show.... But Sony also has their hand in the game. Sensors are going Global Shutter, but even at sub 10ms readouts there are hardly any RS issue. The problem is many full frame sensors are 20-30ms. Once you're at 14-15 stops of DR people are happy. So if the next generation is GS and 15 stops, then I don't think anyone will miss a shutter. With a "taptic engine" type feedback on shutter click and it could have a very nice feel. I think DGO like Arri it does might also be very cooling and power intensive. Canon has it in the C70, but I guess I've never seen a still from that camera, but I believe the readout speed is slower in DGO modes. Arri is around 8ms for both the Alev3 and Alev4 sensor, so I think they've settled on that as a sweet spot. Higher DR is more critical in cinema as those blown out highlights float around from frame to frame (the borders can be more noticeable), and the noise moves... But everything is fixable with that wonderful phenomenon: Contrast. Let's not forget the first sensor to score over 100 a DXO was the Red Dragon sensor in 2012. Follow by the Helium 8k sensor at 108. The current global shutter Raptor-x sensor (43mm wide) would far surpass this. The Komodo (APS-H size) is right about Dragon level (maybe titch lower). If they measured Arri's or the Sony Venice sensor it would also most likely trounce the photo sensors. IBIS seems like the harder sell with M lenses as the axis shift in the corners might affect the "micro lenses", are those still a thing? EVF or hybrid seems like a dumb idea. You can always slap one on top, or get any other camera that has one. Unless there's some projected HUD madness I can't even imagine. Doing one on top allows for bigger unit with more eye relief. You have a depth problem in the current space of the RF. I guess we'll find out. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budfox Posted June 19, 2024 Share #53 Posted June 19, 2024 (edited) On 3/29/2024 at 9:11 PM, ksrhee said: I wouldn't count on that. The M market is small and splitting that market makes no economic sense. Those folks who want EVF in a traditional SLR system have the SL system, and those M users who want the EVF can add the optional EVF. Only time will tell whether Leica will come up with something similar to the interchangeable Q, but even that might be a wishful thinking. I agree an interchangeable Q is more likely than an EVF-M, and probably a safer bet based on the success of the Q series and the potential backlash from traditionalists to an EVF-M (including me!). Even though, I think an interchangeable Q with a new line of lenses will be a big risk. I think an M12 with the same basic design as the M11 (plus or minus moving the buttons to the right), some marketing tweaks to the current sensor, and some sort of internal IBIS - even if only a 3-4 stops effective - is what they should aim for. And deal with the freezing controversy (real or apparent). I am not decided on a tilting screen - I think safer to leave it out in the name of tradition and keeping the camera at pre-digital dimensions, but if done like the X100V/VI probably would be OK. Edited June 19, 2024 by Budfox Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted June 19, 2024 Share #54 Posted June 19, 2024 Sadly an ILC Q is never going to happen without blowing up what currently exists. As said many times before: the lens is built-in - there is no mount, the shutter is built into the lens - there is no traditional separate shutter curtain set back in the body of the camera, the sensor is optimally sited to match the fixed lens and built-in shutter mechanism, OIS is built in to the lens. Think Russian Doll as the metaphor. Launching a new mount and new lenses for a new camera when you have Leica, Panasonic and Sigma agreeing on the L-mount standard, would be financial suicide. Or you can buy an SL2/3 or Panasonic S5 which uses the L-mount and can take M lenses with an adaptor. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Russell Posted June 19, 2024 Share #55 Posted June 19, 2024 What about an new 'W' line with interchangeable autofocus lenses with built in leaf shutters and an a compact body? The biggest drawback of FF mirrorless cameras is the size of the lenses. If leica could keep it all compact they would have a winner on their hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted June 19, 2024 Share #56 Posted June 19, 2024 If built in leaf shutters are your thing then look at the cost of Hasselblad lenses. There's a reason why lens manufacturers don't want that level of complexity. Make one shutter and put it into the camera body: it's cheaper. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maitoparta Posted June 24, 2024 Share #57 Posted June 24, 2024 On 2/23/2024 at 7:34 PM, ivohula said: I have said many times on this site that if I am to buy a new M camera, I want the best image quality from it when I am using my M lenses. To me, this largely entails great dynamic range, cutting edge EVF (9M pixels and at least a 120hertz refresh), and IBIS. All in a fairly similar M camera size as we have now. In the near future, if I want a "traditional" M, then I can buy a used M11, or M10, or whatever floats my needs, all at a substantial savings. When I buy new, I expect great functionality from my $9000+ camera. I expect innovation and reliability. The new Fuji X100VI sensor is an example: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I love my lenses and stay in the M ecosystem to use those lenses. If I have to sacrifice the functionality of the camera to use those lenses, I will to a point, but there is a limit. Technology marches on and Fuji, Sony Canon and Nikon are giving us great cameras with huge lenses. I like my small lenses for my M but there needs to be more stable tech in the M12 and less excuses. Would that make you a better photographer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 24, 2024 Share #58 Posted June 24, 2024 5 hours ago, maitoparta said: Would that make you a better photographer? Oh, no, but it would make his photos more 'perfect' because of, you know, all of those famously imperfect photos taken by flawed Leicas over the last 100 years. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwidad Posted July 6, 2024 Share #59 Posted July 6, 2024 Interesting thread. It always amuses me to see folk covet the features the "M" doesn't have. If you need those features why did you buy a Leica in the first place? If it had those features it wouldn't be an "M" I shoot my M11 because its like my M4 but doesnt need film. I might add my X100 left the house after I shot the Q2! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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