Q3 Monochrom ...Yes / NO

[SrMi]

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20 minutes ago, stbeyer said:

I understand that. What I meant to say was that from a software development perspective, that is the part. Simplest algoritm I can think of:

loop through all the pixels, if pixel is PDAF pixel (you know the x and y position), average out the value of the adjacent pixels. 

In the end, it does not matter how the light is split into phases. I believe the real reason they do not implement this on the monochrome sensor is that the manufacturer (Sony?) does not offer this option. 

That is not what Jono said, and I assume he has information from Leica. I do not see any technical reason why OSPDAF would not be implementable on monochrome sensors. 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is not what Jono said, and I assume he has information from Leica. I do not see any technical reason why OSPDAF would not be implementable on monochrome sensors. 

The Sony 61MP mono sensor doesn’t have PDAF pixels on it. It’s in Sony’s literature on the sensor group. Only one of the colour ones has PDAF.

Gordon

[SrMi]

45 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The Sony 61MP mono sensor doesn’t have PDAF pixels on it. It’s in Sony’s literature on the sensor group. Only one of the colour ones has PDAF.

Gordon

The data sheets for customized sensors provided to customers are not publicly available.

E.g., Hasselblad and Fuji 100MP sensors have different PDAF implementations (row numbers and locations).

[Aerosail]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb CptSlevin:

Nothing is impossible if you put your mind and engineers to it, but Leica is greedy.
They are not innovating, they re-use, refurbish, redesign.

I am as a consumer vote with my money, and Q2 mono will be my choice, same product, less hassle

Don't you think Leica would have integrated PDAF if cost and turnover projected with monochrome cameras would justify it? The thing is that the sensor alone is nothing uniquely made for Leica, it is just the matter of removing filter layers for colour and so on. So after all you would have to add a layer for PDAF sensors again.

Clearly you vote with your money, but I guess you would have voted for a Q2 monochrome too if Leica would offer a Q3 with PDAF at above 10k. 

vor 11 Stunden schrieb stbeyer:

I read that. It's just not consistent with other things I have read. Fact is you need two phases. It just depends on where the splitter optics (microlenses) sit. I was of the impression that on the sensors available to camera makers it's located on the CFA. I could be wrong, of course.

I am not a sensor engineer or optics expert, but I am a computer scientist, and I am pretty sure that if you can interpolate away the Bayer sensor (for lack of a better expression), it should be possible to have an algorithm that makes PDAF pixels in a monochrome sensor's output invisible to the human eye, if such a sensor existed. 

In either case, the reason for sticking to contrast AF is clearly technical (and economical).

I think the main target customer for monochrome looks for unfiltered output, not for computer algorithms fixing sensors sitting in the way. Otherwise you could just have bought a colour model and switch to B&W or directly switch to iPhone. This isn't neither a sports nor a video camera.

vor 11 Stunden schrieb CptSlevin:

I just simply don't understand why all Leica users always defend Leicas' dumb decisions.
They are not small indie company, they from year to year report about enormous increases in profit.

Having 2019 CDAF which even at that time was really bad in 2025 camera for premium is terrible, I just don't understand consumers nowadays, pay more for less

Leica is comparably small to the rest of the camera business. They aren't a startup at all and even they report good profit keep in mind they were almost bankrupt not too long ago. False decisions with such small market share easily sets you back a lot. That is also why they need technology partnerships with Panasonic etc.

 

Overall I think Leica is not your brand if PDAF lives rent free in your head. You might be better off with the japanese brands instead of ranting that Leica does not listen to you. Get an RX1R III and be happy with PDAF at a lower pricetag. 

 

 

[stbeyer]

Just to add to the discussion about PDAF, here is the OEM sensor specification from Sony Semiconductor: https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/IMX461BQR_Flyer_ver10.pdf

It lists 3 variants:

• a color version with "partially masked pixels for phase detect autofocus"
• a color version without PDAF pixels 
• a monochrome version without PDAF pixels

Of course, Leica has not publicly confirmed they are using this sensor, but it seems clear to me that the Q3 Monochrom does not have PDAF due to the lack of a sensor supporting this on the market.

 

[T25UFO]

1 hour ago, Aerosail said:

Overall I think Leica is not your brand if PDAF lives rent free in your head. You might be better off with the japanese brands instead of ranting that Leica does not listen to you. Get an RX1R III and be happy with PDAF at a lower pricetag. 

What a sensible response to @CptSlevin who seems to complain about everything Leica - just take your money and leave us in peace.

[CptSlevin]

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2 hours ago, T25UFO said:

What a sensible response to @CptSlevin who seems to complain about everything Leica - just take your money and leave us in peace.

nope, I love my 2x SL2S, they are top notch and since the release they matured with firmware.

You just seem too be over your head with every new release and doesn't seem to bother that Leica is stagnating.
If you can't stand anyone objectively criticising your favourite camera brand - get off the internet and touch grass, because.

1) M11 was a mess which froze for like 2 years and people got their cameras bricked, they needed 3 years to fix horrific magenta shift.
Not to mention that at first they didn't want to acknowledge the fact that mass freezing of M11 was massive.

2) SL3 / SL3S is undercooked and underloved camera with little to no firmwares and a lot of problems.
They were rushed releases in order not to compete with Lumix counterparts, they are old tech in new bodies which don't sell well.

3) M EV1 is a M11 with no OVF and price of 1.3 Hasselblad X2DII with like internals of 5 years old camera and no real focus assist tools for EVF focusing like at least hybrid VF, focus confirmation of eyes like Nikon, Canon.
An on top of that 60hz refresh rate, when SL3 / Q3 have 120fps.

Yes, I don't like bad products for a lot of money, excuse me for being bold.
I am not inspired by their marketing attempts to sell the same or worse cameras for increased price, excuse me for that.

I have been shooting digital Leicas since 2016, I had Q, SL, than M10, M10R, Q2, SL2S, Q3, Q3 43 and stopped on SL2S.
Be fanboy, don't see my reasoning.

[T25UFO]

Thank you so much for your balanced and objective reply, although you have made some rather silly assumptions.

I have been shooting digital Leicas since the M8 was released and film Leicas since 1976 - the MA is my current favourite - so perhaps I am a little older (mature?) than you.

I’m sure there is some form of treatment for your condition and I genuinely wish you well 🙂

[Blende8Sonnelacht]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb CptSlevin:

nope, I love my 2x SL2S, they are top notch and since the release they matured with firmware.

You just seem too be over your head with every new release and doesn't seem to bother that Leica is stagnating.
If you can't stand anyone objectively criticising your favourite camera brand - get off the internet and touch grass, because.

 

What's wrong with responding politely and appropriately also in the web ? If you're happy and satisfied with your two SL2-2s, then everything's wonderful!

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion of the SL3. Personally, I see the SL3 as an evolution, primarily due to its weight and dimensions, and I won't shed a tear for the SL2. Perceptions vary so much, and that's a good thing! "Leica" also stands for a diverse range of products, from analog to digital, from optical to electronic viewfinders... that should be reason enough for the Leica community to treat each other with ease.
 

[CptSlevin]

37 minutes ago, Blende8Sonnelacht said:

What's wrong with responding politely and appropriately also in the web ? If you're happy and satisfied with your two SL2-2s, then everything's wonderful!

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion of the SL3. Personally, I see the SL3 as an evolution, primarily due to its weight and dimensions, and I won't shed a tear for the SL2. Perceptions vary so much, and that's a good thing! "Leica" also stands for a diverse range of products, from analog to digital, from optical to electronic viewfinders... that should be reason enough for the Leica community to treat each other with ease.
 

I didn't offend T25UFO, however his replies doesn't respond to my critique, they are only refer to me as a person with such interesting assumptions:

"who seems to complain about everything Leica - just take your money and leave us in peace."
"I’m sure there is some form of treatment for your condition and I genuinely wish you well 🙂"

I responded politely - provided with points and arguments, but didn't receive proper counter arguments.
Only that he is more mature, but I don't care about ageism, old concept with nothing new to the table.

My main issue with modern Leica that they don't innovate and stoped caring about bringing new things to the table, but TA seems to be fine with that and every time somebody points that out - this mess happens. 

[brickftl]

no. But if/when a Q3 43 M is released, yes

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, stbeyer said:

Just to add to the discussion about PDAF, here is the OEM sensor specification from Sony Semiconductor: https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/IMX461BQR_Flyer_ver10.pdf

It lists 3 variants:

• a color version with "partially masked pixels for phase detect autofocus"
• a color version without PDAF pixels 
• a monochrome version without PDAF pixels

Of course, Leica has not publicly confirmed they are using this sensor, but it seems clear to me that the Q3 Monochrom does not have PDAF due to the lack of a sensor supporting this on the market.

That link points to the 100MP (Type 3.4) sensor. Sony does not publish datasheets for customized sensors. I.e., even if a published monochrome sensor datasheet does not show PDAF pixels, it does not mean that such a sensor cannot be built. We know that Sony uses the same sensor with different, customized toppings: both CFA and microlenses. I understand that the microlens layer defines the PDAF pixels, including both their presence, number, and location. There is no standardized microlens layer required for that sensor.

[S Maclean]

1 hour ago, CptSlevin said:

I didn't offend T25UFO, however his replies doesn't respond to my critique, they are only refer to me as a person with such interesting assumptions:

"who seems to complain about everything Leica - just take your money and leave us in peace."
"I’m sure there is some form of treatment for your condition and I genuinely wish you well 🙂"

I responded politely - provided with points and arguments, but didn't receive proper counter arguments.
Only that he is more mature, but I don't care about ageism, old concept with nothing new to the table.

My main issue with modern Leica that they don't innovate and stoped caring about bringing new things to the table, but TA seems to be fine with that and every time somebody points that out - this mess happens. 

I'm quoting @CptSlevin for convineance, but my comment is broader and not directed at him/her?

First, from a personal POIV, i get tired of the arguments of "been shooting leica since 1920, 1950, 1960...for 50 year" etc, as an argument to validate a position.  What does it matter how long one has been shooting leica to argue about a product that is just released.....or with someone that has been "shooting Leica' for a year, a month or a day less than you?  EVERYONE's pov is valid, wether they have a long or a short history with the brand.

I do think there are valid points to CPTSLevin's argument, and he is not alone in hoping that Leica would embrace some improvements....which is why the moment a new product is released you see a few threads hoping for the next product version. But, like many brands, Leica has it's own strategy and ethos....and it has never been based on fast paced innovation (with the very notable exception of the creation of the M cameras, whcih where ground-breaking)  Rolex is not innovative, Apple was innovative but is no arguably well behind other brands in cutting edge technology..... so, valid as the arguments are, nobody forces anyone else to buy Leica. It resonates with you, or it does not.  I am happier shooting with a limited Leica than an unlkimited Fuji (and I have both) or Sony, or Nikon or Canon... I am more inspired, I feel more aligned, more motivated....so I take better pictures. That's it. I dont think Leica is best, far from it....iot's just one of the brands I "like" best. And THAT is the issue with ad hominem arguments about the brand. When one questions the buyer, instead of the product, they are no longer arguing the merits of a brand, but the de-merits of a person. That is wrong.

(BTW, seeing the amount of Leica cameras CPTSlevin lists as having or having had, there seems to be a very clear interest in the brand, despite of his/her argument. )

Now, let's hope we can move on from personal judgements here....accross the board.

[SrMi]

Chris Niccolls (PetaPixel) reviewed Q3M and discussed the CDAF-only implementation. He came to the same conclusion as apparently @jonoslack did: AF-C with subject detection works quite well.

YT link to the focusing discussion.

[Blende8Sonnelacht]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb CptSlevin:

I responded politely - provided with points and arguments, but didn't receive proper counter arguments.

„If you can't stand anyone objectively criticising your favourite camera brand - get off the internet and touch grass, because.“ - This does not sound polite to me, but if you see it different, fine by me. 

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

nope, I love my 2x SL2S, they are top notch and since the release they matured with firmware.

You just seem too be over your head with every new release and doesn't seem to bother that Leica is stagnating.
If you can't stand anyone objectively criticising your favourite camera brand - get off the internet and touch grass, because.

1) M11 was a mess which froze for like 2 years and people got their cameras bricked, they needed 3 years to fix horrific magenta shift.
Not to mention that at first they didn't want to acknowledge the fact that mass freezing of M11 was massive.
 

HI Captain Slevin - I will reply politely

There were freezing issues (for a few users)  with the M11 which were taken very seriously VERY seriously by Leica - I know this because I was on the large team of beta testers who were checking and rechecking each new version of the firmware. The very few who had bricked cameras had them replaced (quite right too)

The M11 has (and had from the start) the best skin tones of any Leica Camera - the magenta shift was not horrific, only happened with some cameras in grey conditions, and was easily fixed in post processing - but Leica put a lot of effort into finding a solution which wouldn't mean changing colour for people who already had established workflow with their camera (not an easy job). 

Nowadays the M11 and its variants are very stable with great firmware, battery life and wonderful image quality. 

7 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

2) SL3 / SL3S is undercooked and underloved camera with little to no firmwares and a lot of problems.
They were rushed releases in order not to compete with Lumix counterparts, they are old tech in new bodies which don't sell well.
 

What are the 'lot of problems' with the SL3/SL3S - I'm not aware of any - further than that the new menu system is a wonder of sensible, configurable and well thought out minimalism. I understood that they are selling quite well - do you have access to Leica Sales figures? I don't know anyone who has one of the SL3 family of cameras who doesn't love it (but I don't know everyone of course!).

"little to no firmware" not sure what that means?

 

7 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

3) M EV1 is a M11 with no OVF and price of 1.3 Hasselblad X2DII with like internals of 5 years old camera and no real focus assist tools for EVF focusing like at least hybrid VF, focus confirmation of eyes like Nikon, Canon.
An on top of that 60hz refresh rate, when SL3 / Q3 have 120fps.
 

Well, actually it has the internals of a 3 year old camera, and in the UK it's about the same price as the Hasselblad (but I agree the AF isn't nearly as good). It has a range of focus assist tools, but none which rely on PDAF sensors (like Canon or Nikon). There was a LOT of research done on a hybrid rangefinder and they found that it was inevitably the worst of both worlds. Remember - the Fuji X-pro does not have an optical rangefinder, just an optical viewfinder - Leica made this camera because their users asked for it  - as far as I understand it's selling well, and people like it - if it's a success I'm sure that they will develop it further - including firmware updates in the future. 

But of course I'm just a fanboy!

[T25UFO]

18 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

HI Captain Slevin - I will reply politely

There were freezing issues (for a few users)  with the M11 which were taken very seriously VERY seriously by Leica - I know this because I was on the large team of beta testers who were checking and rechecking each new version of the firmware. The very few who had bricked cameras had them replaced (quite right too)

The M11 has (and had from the start) the best skin tones of any Leica Camera - the magenta shift was not horrific, only happened with some cameras in grey conditions, and was easily fixed in post processing - but Leica put a lot of effort into finding a solution which wouldn't mean changing colour for people who already had established workflow with their camera (not an easy job). 

Nowadays the M11 and its variants are very stable with great firmware, battery life and wonderful image quality. 

What are the 'lot of problems' with the SL3/SL3S - I'm not aware of any - further than that the new menu system is a wonder of sensible, configurable and well thought out minimalism. I understood that they are selling quite well - do you have access to Leica Sales figures? I don't know anyone who has one of the SL3 family of cameras who doesn't love it (but I don't know everyone of course!).

"little to no firmware" not sure what that means?

 

Well, actually it has the internals of a 3 year old camera, and in the UK it's about the same price as the Hasselblad (but I agree the AF isn't nearly as good). It has a range of focus assist tools, but none which rely on PDAF sensors (like Canon or Nikon). There was a LOT of research done on a hybrid rangefinder and they found that it was inevitably the worst of both worlds. Remember - the Fuji X-pro does not have an optical rangefinder, just an optical viewfinder - Leica made this camera because their users asked for it  - as far as I understand it's selling well, and people like it - if it's a success I'm sure that they will develop it further - including firmware updates in the future. 

But of course I'm just a fanboy!

Now that IS a sensible and balanced response.  Wouldn’t it be nice if ALL contributors to this forum were as knowledgeable and articulate.

Thank you @jonoslack

[stbeyer]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

That link points to the 100MP (Type 3.4) sensor. Sony does not publish datasheets for customized sensors. I.e., even if a published monochrome sensor datasheet does not show PDAF pixels, it does not mean that such a sensor cannot be built. We know that Sony uses the same sensor with different, customized toppings: both CFA and microlenses. I understand that the microlens layer defines the PDAF pixels, including both their presence, number, and location. There is no standardized microlens layer required for that sensor.

You are right, wrong link. I meant to link to this one from the same page: https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/p-13_IMX455AQK_BQK_ALK_Flyer.pdf. Sorry about this.

However, I think you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I never said that "it cannot be built". I am saying that it seems not to have been available to Leica. Maybe Sony doesn't want to customize it for such small numbers, maybe they offered a price that was not feasible for Leica. Who knows? But it is clear that the monochrome sensor with PDAF pixels was not available to them on the market. 

Just do what sensible people do when they don't like a product: don't buy it. I am by no means a fan boy, but I can reason about why certain things are not available to me and then either live with the compromise or buy something else. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, SrMi said:

The data sheets for customized sensors provided to customers are not publicly available.

E.g., Hasselblad and Fuji 100MP sensors have different PDAF implementations (row numbers and locations).

I didn’t think the PDAF array was customisable. PDAF sensors are built into the wafer, not the coatings AFAIK. Sony SC lists 3 versions of the IMX 455. Only one of the colour sensors has PDAF. The mono version doesn’t. They state the sensor can not be customised. So unless Leica was purchasing a fully bespoke 61.2MP sensor and not the IMX455 they can’t modify it to shoot with PDAF.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

That link points to the 100MP (Type 3.4) sensor. Sony does not publish datasheets for customized sensors. I.e., even if a published monochrome sensor datasheet does not show PDAF pixels, it does not mean that such a sensor cannot be built. We know that Sony uses the same sensor with different, customized toppings: both CFA and microlenses. I understand that the microlens layer defines the PDAF pixels, including both their presence, number, and location. There is no standardized microlens layer required for that sensor.

The micro lens layer would then need circuitry to function. PDAF pixels are part of the wafer AFAIK. If it were the micro lens layer how would a camera with something like a Kolari modification still have PDAF.

Gordon