leicar7 Posted November 22, 2007 Share #1 Posted November 22, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I occurred to me that whenever lens compatibility has been part of a topic on the R10, that it has been about forward compatibility, i.e., being able to use current lenses on the R10. Herr Kaufmann allowed at the recent LHSA meeting, if I inferred correctly, that there is an engineering solution available for that. What bothers me is the issue of backward compatibility. With the speculation, fueled by Herr Kaufmann's address at LHSA, that the R10 might have a larger than FF sensor, and, therefore, a larger diameter lens mount, it would appear that forthcoming R lenses won't fit on film Rs. Do we have an EOS moment on the horizon? It also causes me to wonder what sales of R lenses must be like now. It is difficult to imagine someone buying current R gear, with the debut of the R10 pending. Thoughts, anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 22, 2007 Posted November 22, 2007 Hi leicar7, Take a look here Forward and Backward Lens Compatibility for R10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted November 22, 2007 Share #2 Posted November 22, 2007 ..It is difficult to imagine someone buying current R gear, with the debut of the R10 pending. Thoughts, anyone? Just bought 6 minty R lenses for less than 2,200 euro but you have not to do like me of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicar7 Posted November 22, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted November 22, 2007 I guess I should have specified new kit. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 22, 2007 Share #4 Posted November 22, 2007 ...the R10 might have a larger than FF sensor, and, therefore, a larger diameter lens mount... Why therefore? Have you heard of someone at Leica suggesting that the mount could change in any way? The R mount is one of the largest yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted November 22, 2007 Share #5 Posted November 22, 2007 I would expect Leica to design their new camera and lenses on the basis of forward and backwards compatibility if at all possible, but assuming the next R is AF, why would you want to use AF lenses on a non AF body? Will it use the current cam and ROM system or would new lenses have to be used in stop down mode? There are plenty of current new stock R lenses on the market and of course many on the s/h market. Or perhaps they will continue to offer a limited range of the more popular current R lenses? All of this is pure speculation of course. There are precedents for Leica in making radical steps forward with their lens design - they dropped the LTM for the M mount after all and you can't fit M lenses to a lllf ! But you can fit your 1930's Elmar to your new M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted November 23, 2007 Share #6 Posted November 23, 2007 I occurred to me that whenever lens compatibility has been part of a topic on the R10, that it has been about forward compatibility, i.e., being able to use current lenses on the R10. Herr Kaufmann allowed at the recent LHSA meeting, if I inferred correctly, that there is an engineering solution available for that. What bothers me is the issue of backward compatibility. With the speculation, fueled by Herr Kaufmann's address at LHSA, that the R10 might have a larger than FF sensor, and, therefore, a larger diameter lens mount, it would appear that forthcoming R lenses won't fit on film Rs. Do we have an EOS moment on the horizon? It also causes me to wonder what sales of R lenses must be like now. It is difficult to imagine someone buying current R gear, with the debut of the R10 pending. Thoughts, anyone? A camera with a format larger than 35 mm would be a medium format camera for example. Since the mirror box is larger, the distance to the sensor increases and you can easily fit most medium format lenses on 35 mm cameras. The same may hold for a similar Leica design. A sensor size larger than full frame is not possible - just another misleading Leica term. The sensor size can not be larger than 100%, but may be larger than the 35 format though - this is what they mean, they just lack the competence to put this in words. I don't wan to sound picky here, but Leica is full of misleading and simply wrong definitions of digital terms theses days - well, like most other companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 23, 2007 Share #7 Posted November 23, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) A larger that full frame sensor implies a larger mirror. A larger mirror implies a greater sensor to lens flange distance to allow for mirror clearance. A larger sensor to flange distance means that current R lenses will not work with infinity focus. I'm sure Leica have worked this out for themselves. Now of course if the frame was full frame height - 24mm but in a 16:9 format... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 23, 2007 Share #8 Posted November 23, 2007 ...The sensor size can not be larger than 100%, but may be larger than the 35 format though... Could you explain the difference between 100% and 35mm? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 23, 2007 Share #9 Posted November 23, 2007 The sensor size can not be larger than 100%, but may be larger than the 35 format though - this is what they mean, they just lack the competence to put this in words. Like most of us I would guess. Ask 100 photographers what they think a full frame digital SLR means and I bet that 99 will say that is full frame in relation to 35mm film. The other one knows, but is being a smart arse <grin>. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted November 23, 2007 Share #10 Posted November 23, 2007 Like most of us I would guess. Ask 100 photographers what they think a full frame digital SLR means and I bet that 99 will say that is full frame in relation to 35mm film. The other one knows, but is being a smart arse <grin>. If 100 people jump off the cliff, will you jump as well? Will the first 100 people pay 5000 Euros to Leica before they jump in more than FF heaven. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted November 23, 2007 Share #11 Posted November 23, 2007 Could you explain the difference between 100% and 35mm? Thanks. 100% is a proportion of a quantity 35mm is a length Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 23, 2007 Share #12 Posted November 23, 2007 If 100 people jump off the cliff, will you jump as well? No, I prefer to live on the edge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicar7 Posted November 23, 2007 Author Share #13 Posted November 23, 2007 In response to Mr. Early: I doubt I'd buy an R10 right away, partly to wait out the bugs, and because lenses actually interest me rather more. So even if an R10 lens is AF, I'd like to be able to use it on my R9 until I am ready to spring for the R10. I'm hoping, probably against hope, that some of the new lenses will be fast primes, hopefully, too, focal lengths that have not been updated yet, to wit, 24, 35, 60, 135. I wouldn't complain about a 28/2 either. As for zooms, I have no particular interest in new zooms unless they are f/2.8 all the way. If they are f/4, seeing and manually focussing quickly becomes an issue, and selective focus becomes less available as a compositional tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFi-Chaser Posted November 27, 2007 Share #14 Posted November 27, 2007 Intersting Idea, but I don't think, we'll have an EOS-Momentum. Allthough I'm rather sure, the R10 will (simply must) have another mount to fit for the actual requirements, people/buyers will expect from a body that compares to other high-end-material: What is the sense of using a R10-Lens at R9? The difference to the former EOS-Momentum is: at Canon, both mounts were made for the same kind and size of sensor. This time R10-Lenses would be optimized for digital purposes, current R-Lenses are optimized for 24x36mm² of filmgrains. Who tells, R10-Lenses will perform better than current ones at R9 - on film or even at an DMR with Crop 1,4? If I couldn't use my current Lenses at an R10, that would be a severe problem to me - not vice versa. However I have just to wait for an affordable DMR, that I hope to be available, when the R10 comes up ;-) 'til then I change a sensor after every 37th slide ;-) Regards T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 27, 2007 Share #15 Posted November 27, 2007 ...Allthough I'm rather sure, the R10 will (simply must) have another mount to fit for the actual requirements... Why? Did Nikon change their mount for the D3? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFi-Chaser Posted November 27, 2007 Share #16 Posted November 27, 2007 Why? Did Nikon change their mount for the D3? not as far as I know, but the D2x already had AF as well ... Allthough I don't really miss the AF at my R8, I can't imagine anyone buying a digital slr-body for around 5000 Euro or even more, that doesn't have AF. Either the R10 is much cheaper than a D3, or it's much better. Any third way is the end of the red dot, as we know it - my personal suggestion. Regards T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 27, 2007 Share #17 Posted November 27, 2007 A camera with a format larger than 35 mm would be a medium format camera for example. Since the mirror box is larger, the distance to the sensor increases and you can easily fit most medium format lenses on 35 mm cameras. The same may hold for a similar Leica design. A sensor size larger than full frame is not possible - just another misleading Leica term. The sensor size can not be larger than 100%, but may be larger than the 35 format though - this is what they mean, they just lack the competence to put this in words. I don't wan to sound picky here, but Leica is full of misleading and simply wrong definitions of digital terms theses days - well, like most other companies. It is not a misleading Leica term, it is a term dreamed up by Canon marketing for a 24x36 sensor and drummed into the innocent minds of the camera-buying public at the cost of a considerabled millions (billons? I have no idea of the exchange-rate) of Yens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 27, 2007 Share #18 Posted November 27, 2007 A camera with a format larger than 35 mm would be a medium format camera for example. Since the mirror box is larger, the distance to the sensor increases and you can easily fit most medium format lenses on 35 mm cameras. The same may hold for a similar Leica design. A sensor size larger than full frame is not possible - just another misleading Leica term. The sensor size can not be larger than 100%, but may be larger than the 35 format though - this is what they mean, they just lack the competence to put this in words. I don't wan to sound picky here, but Leica is full of misleading and simply wrong definitions of digital terms theses days - well, like most other companies. It is not a misleading Leica term, it is a term dreamed up by Canon marketing for a 24x36 sensor and drummed into the innocent minds of the camera-buying public at the cost of considerable millions (billions? I have no idea of the exchange-rate) of Yens In theory full frame means a sensor the size of the final print - something like A4... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 27, 2007 Share #19 Posted November 27, 2007 not as far as I know, but the D2x already had AF as well ...Allthough I don't really miss the AF at my R8, I can't imagine anyone buying a digital slr-body for around 5000 Euro or even more, that doesn't have AF.... I don't quite see your point sorry. The Nikon mount is older than AF isn't it. So why do you want that the R mount, which is larger than the latter, needs to be changed because AF? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamey Posted November 27, 2007 Share #20 Posted November 27, 2007 The basic lens mount has no relation to auto focus, after all it's only there to couple and hold the lens to the body. Most auto focus systems use some form of electronic signal to activate the servo mechanism or what Nikon did use a rotating spindle which is fixed in the body and rotates the Auto focus mechanism.( I don't know if it still used) Most Auto focus lenses use there own in built servo motors to activate their auto focus system after a electronic signal is received from the camera body. If you notice on Rom "R" lenses, and R8/9 electronic contacts are already fitted. Perhaps not relative to Auto focus, but it proves that the R mount is large enough to have Electrical contact pins to handle auto focus mechanisms. Nikon has installed a FF sensor in their D3, and it still uses the F mount. Rumors are starting to circle on the impending D400, will also have a full frame sensor. Pentax also use their old K mount for their DSLR auto focus mechanism. Leica's M8 uses the original M mount so why not. Personal... I see no reason why Leica could not use their R mount for future auto focus system, otherwise it will be suicide for them not to use the old mount as so many R lenses are out there. I would not be surprised if Leica is testing the waters with the 4/3 system D3, so far it's not doing well, and I don't think Leica wants two DSLR systems, one has to go, because their D3 is not proving popular, It could be full system GO for the R10. As for the Leica 4/3 system, ???????????????????? I am still out on that one. Time will tell. Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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