Leica Q3 Hidden Cost of ownership

[Qwertynm]

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To pile on the apple trashing (as a mac user) I find their hardware beautiful but some software is a straight up disgrace. for example that god awful mail program that's still stuck in the 00's.

As for hidden cost of ownership I will be downgrading from a 16" M1Max 32GB to a Mac Mini M1 16GB soon so this will be interesting. Looking forward to upgrade to the M3Ultra once it's released. Give me the same power and usability in a comparable package with windows and I switch. Adobe as well as DaVinci are platform agnostic so there is no real reason to stay on mac if you don't use proprietary software.

[jaapv]

Let’s not turn this thread into that old chestnut of Mac versus PC. 

[LocalHero1953]

21 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Let’s not turn this thread into that old chestnut of Mac versus PC. 

Yes - my apologies!

[nicci78]

I don’t understand criticism about macOS softwares ?

Most of included app are top notch. 
Not happy plenty of awesome third party app are available. 
They can also tailor the UI to your liking. 

Really the battle between macOS and windows is over. 

If you want the absolute best unplugged laptop ? Any MacBooks at any price level will smoke any Windows laptop. Which are more transportable computers than real laptops. They need to be plug in for full power. Otherwise they will be slower than M1 MacBook Air

If you want to play video games ? Windows with nVidia GPU are your only choice. 

Top notch desktop don't care about power consumption ? Any powerful intel or AMD destop are unbeatable. 

For absolute silence : only Macs will do. Windows are noisy as hell. 

Last but not least : absolute best battery life. Really no competition. 

Adobe softwares are superbly well optimised for macOS. 

MacBook Pro M3 Max are a kind of laptop that simply did not exist in Windows world. (At least unplugged) Such laptops make desktop computer a thing of the past. Just buy a nice big external monitor 

Edited December 8, 2023 by nicci78

[jaapv]

Did you read my post above yours? 
No thread hijacking. 

[nicci78]

Ok let’s go back to the thread and about the experience discrepancies. 
Some did not use LR Classic but Photoshop with Camera RAW. 
Some did not add hundreds of photos at a time. 
Some did not multitask. 
Some did not use multiple 4K or 5K monitors. 
Some did not generate 1:1 previews. 
Some did not apply profiles at import. 
etc… etc…

Anything above will use more or less memory. 

I am importing hundreds of Q2 files at once with presets into Lightroom Classic. I also generate 1:1 previews which allow me to store DNG on external drives while being able to edit them on the MBP without taking to much storage space. 
1:1 previews are much nicer to work with than dynamic previews. 
I also use one 4K 24” and another 5K 27” LG Ultrafine for Mac. 
And of course I am multitasking with several app opens. 
With all of that with 16GB it is constantly hitting the yellow zone of memory usage while using LRC. 
32GB would have been better. 
Swap memory is not a solution. Because the fastest SSD is many times slower than RAM. 
 

[TheLaird]

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I got a M2 Mac Air with 16Gb RAM and 500Gb last year. I have been a Windows user at home (at work Mainframe, Minis, OS2, Unix and Windows as I am embarrassed to say I work in "computing") for years. So my habits have come with me. When I close down an app I close it and UnDock I think is the term.

Not really sure what the term . .going into the orange relates to. I would think an app that shows usage but not sure which one.

I recently sold my Fuji GFX and moved to Q2. I find no issue in the processing in LR Classic. The major issue I had was using the wrong USB cable on my external SSD's - you really do need a good cable to make it fly.

I also have OM-1 that I use for wildlife and sport. After a sporting match, I need to import up to a 1000 RAWs, select best, process and export. All within a couple of hours and my Mac is more than capable.

 

[Marc B-C]

4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

MacBook Pro M3 Max are a kind of laptop that simply did not exist in Windows world. (At least unplugged) Such laptops make desktop computer a thing of the past. Just buy a nice big external monitor 

I ditched my desktop Mac a couple of years ago for a MacBook Pro M1 Max with 32gb and cannot ever see me returning to a desk top again. With Capture One and an Eizo 27" screen, plus the portability of the laptop. I am content with my IT. With my CalDigit TS3 dock, only one cable to unplug from the MacBook makes life very easy

[David Wien]

2 minutes ago, AussieQ said:

This thread has evolved...........

Unless the implication is that you cant use a Q3 without becoming a committed MAC user! 😀 That aint going to happen in my case, but I shall be quite happy to keep quiet about it...

David

[jaapv]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:35 AM, nicci78 said:

Ok let’s go back to the thread and about the experience discrepancies. 
Some did not use LR Classic but Photoshop with Camera RAW. 
Some did not add hundreds of photos at a time. 
Some did not multitask. 
Some did not use multiple 4K or 5K monitors. 
Some did not generate 1:1 previews. 
Some did not apply profiles at import. 
etc… etc…

Anything above will use more or less memory. 

I am importing hundreds of Q2 files at once with presets into Lightroom Classic. I also generate 1:1 previews which allow me to store DNG on external drives while being able to edit them on the MBP without taking to much storage space. 
1:1 previews are much nicer to work with than dynamic previews. 
I also use one 4K 24” and another 5K 27” LG Ultrafine for Mac. 
And of course I am multitasking with several app opens. 
With all of that with 16GB it is constantly hitting the yellow zone of memory usage while using LRC. 
32GB would have been better. 
Swap memory is not a solution. Because the fastest SSD is many times slower than RAM. 
 

Intel? 

[jaapv]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:39 PM, Marc B-C said:

I ditched my desktop Mac a couple of years ago for a MacBook Pro M1 Max with 32gb and cannot ever see me returning to a desk top again. With Capture One and an Eizo 27" screen, plus the portability of the laptop. I am content with my IT. With my CalDigit TS3 dock, only one cable to unplug from the MacBook makes life very easy

I often run my desktop and laptop side by side. 

[bags27]

I edit (PS and Topaz) 100 mps plus files (scanned medium format film) on my 16 GB RAM Mac 1 Pro, and it seems to work really quickly. But it's still food for thought, as I'm considering the HB 907x 100c (forthcoming) as a digtial back for my Blad.

[nicci78]

55 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Intel? 

Of course not : M1 Pro 

However I never experienced any problems with my former iMac 27” i7 with 32GB… the memory was always on the green side. 
 

Just a little bit of perspective about the difference between unified memory VS SSD swap memory. 
RAM speed is
100GB/sec M3 150GB/sec M3 Pro
300GB/sec M3 Max binned
400GB/sec M3 Max proper. 
Whereas SSD swap is only around 0.3GB to 0.7GB/sec at best !!! It is so many times slower that it is totally ridiculous to even think that it can replace RAM. 
Apple marketing is really good but it is a lie. 
Just buy as much RAM as you can. 

CPU & GPU power is more than enough for the next 10 years. What will drive future upgrades will be not enough RAM. Being not upgradable you’ll have to buy a whole new computer…

I was a fool to believe that 16GB of unified memory can replace 32GB of RAM + 8GB of GRAM. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by nicci78

[Qwertynm]

If I could go back in time I‘d take the M1 Max with 64GB Ram instead the 2TB SSD. Lightroom Classic is easily taking up 24GB alone and the system often has to swap memory, which is less than ideal for either speed nor longevity of the SSD.

I agree that there are some „hidden cost“ (if you want) to purchasing high MP cameras. Luckily there are no extra lenses to purchase for the Q 😅 My Canon system has been far more expensive over the years than the purchase of the Q3 …

Edited December 9, 2023 by Qwertynm

[nicci78]

Actually more than RAM or CPU/GPU/NPU power requirements it is storage cost. 
Sadly its cost is not going down. HDD price is stable for years. Fastest NVMe SSD is still cost prohibitive. Slowest one is okay but still several times more expensive than HDD  

When counting on tripling the amount of storage for proper on site and off site backups. Going 60MP is really costly in the end 

 

[NicholasT]

As the resolution of my cameras has increased, I’ve become more disciplined in my shooting ( take fewer better photos ) and more discriminating with my “keepers”.

This produces a double benefit. No increase in storage costs and more time saved from not having to review / edit sub standard photos.

Problem solved!

Edited December 10, 2023 by NicholasT

[Qwertynm]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb nicci78:

Actually more than RAM or CPU/GPU/NPU power requirements it is storage cost.

Strongly disagree here, especially when talking about Apple computers. You can’t upgrade RAM/CPU/GPU after purchase. Storage is so cheap and can be fast too with nvme ssds or slow and ultra cheap for archiving old raw files in the form of HDDs. Besides, for photo editing 5GB/s read/write speeds don’t move the needle as much as not enough RAM, Cpu or Gpu Power.

a Samsung 8TB 870 SSD costs CHF 349.90. that‘s roughly 5 cents USD per GB. That’s roughly 5% of the purchse price of the Q3. I‘d argue many spend more for a bag, strap and accessories. 8TB is going to last you a looong time. 

[nicci78]

It is not cheap. You have to triple it !! 
one working drive. 
one on site backup. 
one off site backup. 
bonus : one cloud backup which can be cheap (amazon photos) or expensive (Creative Cloud, BlackBlaze, iCloud, etc..) 

With Q2 files it will add up fast. 

By the way proper 8TB NVMe SSD TLC is 890€ !!! Without USB 4 enclosure which add another 110€. So as fast as MacBook Pro internal 8TB SSD will cost 1000€ !! 
 

The Samsung 8TB stated is a very slow QLC SSD. Twice faster than 7200tr/min HDD but way slower than TLC 8TB NVMe SSD with USB 4 enclosure. Sadly it is very hot to use. And require active cooling or a huge enclosure. 

I am very happy with a middle ground : tiny but fast enough Crucial X9 Pro 4TB TLC USB 3.2 gen 2. A nice 1000MB/sec slower than 8000MB/sec of Apple internal SSD but faster than the 120MB/Sec of 8TB Samsung SSD (I also got one) 

 

[Miltz]

10 hours ago, NicholasT said:

As the resolution of my cameras has increased, I’ve become more disciplined in my shooting ( take fewer better photos ) and more discriminating with my “keepers”.

This produces a double benefit. No increase in storage costs and more time saved from not having to review / edit sub standard photos.

Problem solved!

I've actually been practicing this since I got my Q3. Especially when deleting images that didn't make it.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Miltz

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[nicci78]

Just an example that Samsung SSD 8TB being a QLC is not comparable with TLC SSD in term of performance and sustainability :

Samsung 8TB SSD SATA with USB-C enclosure :

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Old Samsung 1TB MLC SATA with USB-C enclosure : 

Brand new Crucial SSD 4TB TLC NVMe USB-C 3.2 gen 2 :