M10R Life Expectancy

[MEC]

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Does anyone know approx how many images the M10R can take before it craps out for good? 

Thanks in advance. 

Michael 

 

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[overexposed]

nope, but more than you ever will shoot 😁

[jaapv]

It will vanish in a puff of green smoke as you take image 165388

[Borna]

I read somewhere that the original M10 shutter is expected to take minimum 300k photos, which is way over what I will take in my lifetime it feels like. Do they share the same shutter? If not, the R probably is even better. 

Found somewhere saying "M10M is rated for 500k actuations"

Edited November 24, 2023 by Borna

[TeleElmar135mm]

Easy: Make a test  and you habe your answer in a month  

500000 actutions with 5 actuation per sec. make 100,000 s. to test or about 1666 min or about 27 days - 

if it works you are on the safe side .... if not sent her to Wetzlar. 

[adan]

I figure it in time rather than pictures - I assume 10 years. Someone from the EU can correct me on this, but I think it is required that products be repairable (parts available) for at least that long.

Usually something new comes along (M9 > M10 > ??) first, but I did get 7.5 years out the M9s before choosing to upgrade, and am coming up on 7 years for my first M10 (bought Feb. 2017) with no signs of problems.

That camera has somewhere around 100000 "actuations" so far, just based on how many times I have had to reset the image numbering prefixe when it hits "xxx9999." L100, L102, L104, L106, L108, L110, L112, L114, L116, just rolled it over to 1180001.

[overexposed]

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3 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

Easy: Make a test  and you habe your answer in a month  

500000 actutions with 5 actuation per sec. make 100,000 s. to test or about 1666 min or about 27 days - 

if it works you are on the safe side .... if not sent her to Wetzlar. 

you forgot to add in the buffer size of the cameras, you wont be able to hold 5fps for 27 days, most likely more than 40 days, my guestimate

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb overexposed:

you forgot to add in the buffer size of the cameras, you wont be able to hold 5fps for 27 days, most likely more than 40 days, my guestimate

ok. it's for the sabbatical  

[jaapv]

43 minutes ago, adan said:

I figure it in time rather than pictures - I assume 10 years. Someone from the EU can correct me on this, but I think it is required that products be repairable (parts available) for at least that long.

Usually something new comes along (M9 > M10 > ??) first, but I did get 7.5 years out the M9s before choosing to upgrade, and am coming up on 7 years for my first M10 (bought Feb. 2017) with no signs of problems.

That camera has somewhere around 100000 "actuations" so far, just based on how many times I have had to reset the image numbering prefixe when it hits "xxx9999." L100, L102, L104, L106, L108, L110, L112, L114, L116, just rolled it over to 1180001.

Leica will service cameras far beyond ten years provided the relevant parts are still available. 

[dpitt]

Based on my experience with my M8 and M9, life expectancy for a digital M's is probably 20+ years with a bit of luck. Of course not all of them will reach that without issues, but some will reach 40.

I have a hard time shooting 300 pictures with an M in a day. That is much more work than with AF and fast machine. So if you are dedicated and shoot 5 days/7, then 10 years of shooting equals 780.000.

My answer would be on average 1.000.000 before it craps out, or 20 years

[wizard]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

It will vanish in a puff of green smoke as you take image 165388

I thought the answer would be 42 🙂.

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb wizard:

I thought the answer would be 42 🙂.

and don't forget the towel - so you come quicker to wetzlar to repair the camera  

[Anbaric]

26 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Leica will service cameras far beyond ten years provided the relevant parts are still available. 

There's the catch, though. For example, the M-E (Typ 220), which used the M9 sensor, was sold from 2012-2015. But the sensors became unavailable in 2020, which for some customers would be only 5 years after they bought the camera. Leica had hastened the end of spare parts availability by marrying some of the last sensors to returned M9 bodies and selling them on. I don't know what the EU rules are, but I recall a repair period of 5-10 years being discussed, depending on the product. I suspect Leica only think they have an obligation to repair digital cameras for 5 years after they were last sold. Some may be fixable well beyond this period, but the supply chains for digital cameras are complex and technology changes quickly. Leica may simply not be able to get hold of the components a few years from now, and may not keep large stockpiles of parts.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Anbaric

[overexposed]

59 minutes ago, wizard said:

I thought the answer would be 42 🙂.

we finally know the question!

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

There's the catch, though. For example, the M-E (Typ 220), which used the M9 sensor, was sold from 2012-2015. But the sensors became unavailable in 2020, which for some customers would be only 5 years after they bought the camera. Leica had hastened the end of spare parts availability by marrying some of the last sensors to returned M9 bodies and selling them on. I don't know what the EU rules are, but I recall a repair period of 5-10 years being discussed, depending on the product. I suspect Leica only think they have an obligation to repair digital cameras for 5 years after they were last sold. Some may be fixable well beyond this period, but the supply chains for digital cameras are complex and technology changes quickly. Leica may simply not be able to get hold of the components a few years from now, and may not keep large stockpiles of parts.

Leica does not think that but there are circumstances beyond their control and the European rules recognize that.

Examples:

DMR:  The parts supplier/maker was sold, cutting off the parts supply overnight.
M8 2. The coffee stain issue used up the ample stock of LCDs and the part was no longer available in the far east.
M9. The corrosion issue: Kodak was sold several times cutting short the sensor production.
In such cases they normally offer a new for old discount on a comparable product.

Leica keeps reasonable stockpiles or has contracts with suppliers but unfortunately unexpected sh!t happens in the real world. 

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Leica does not think that but there are circumstances beyond their control and the European rules recognize that.

I think it would have been within Leica's control to keep a reasonable stock of M9/M-E sensors for anyone unfortunate enough to buy a potentially affected camera as late as 2015, especially as they knew perfectly well that there was a high risk of the sensors corroding over time. Instead, in July 2019, they were doing this:

https://www.slack.co.uk/m9-for-ccd-lovers.html

'Then, when I looked at the display cabinets I realised they were filled with startlingly a la carte M9 cameras. Michel explained that they had the space . . and they had the cameras and the sensors and the shutters and thought it might be a good idea to put it all together. ... Leica traded up many users in the sensor replacement scheme, and as a result had a good stock of bodies and sensors, it seemed silly to let them go to waste.'

- @jonoslack

By the following year they had, strangely enough, run out of sensors.

[jaapv]

Because they could not know that Kodak would be sold on once again and production discontinued…Anyway this was a restricted number of refurbs , soon sold out. ( which you conveniently left out in your quote ) so it hardly made a significant difference to the replacement program 

[dpitt]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

M9. The corrosion issue: Kodak was sold several times cutting short the sensor production.
In such cases they normally offer a new for old discount on a comparable product.

Yes, and even 8+ years after end of production, they do offer a nice  upgrade discount to a new M11 if you send in a M9 with corrosion. I heard from someone taking that offer just one month ago.

Edited November 24, 2023 by dpitt

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Because they could not know that Kodak would be sold on once again and production discontinued…Anyway this was a restricted number of refurbs , soon sold out. ( which you conveniently left out in your quote ) so it hardly made a significant difference to the replacement program 

I think Leica and everyone else knew that mainstream CCD production was coming to an end, regardless of the fortunes of Kodak - Sony and others also stopped making them in 2020. When Leica placed their order for the batch of new-type sensors before this happened, they will have known how many M9 family cameras were coming in with problems every month for service. Someone must have projected how many sensors they would need for the period when they would continue repairing these cameras. Five years after the M-E was discontinued may have seemed to them like a reasonable time to draw a line under the whole sorry saga, though this would necessarily leave some owners out in the cold because the problem can take longer than that to develop.

We don't know how 'restricted' the number of refurbs was or how long they sold them for before Jono wrote his article, but he noted there were display cabinets 'filled with' these cameras when he visited and that Leica had 'good stocks' of both bodies and sensors that they didn't want to 'go to waste'. According to this thread a member of staff at Leica reported there was 'very strong demand' for the refurbs, yet a forum member was able to order one from Leica when there were still 'a few left' shortly before posting about it in July 2020, a year after Jono's visit and just weeks before Leica stopped replacing sensors in customer cameras. Another batch of these cameras would later turn up at KEH with February 2021 service dates, implying that the refurbishment programme continued after the customer sensor replacement programme had ended.

[TomB_tx]

I wouldn't plan on any modern electronic device to be repairable after 10 years - the technology changes too fast, and most rely on specialized integrated circuits and such and not the discrete components of past designs.

I used to design specialized electronic field test equipment (low volume) and it was quite an effort to keep a model in production as components kept being obsoleted. If you aren't a high-volume manufacturer you have no leverage with suppliers.

Edited November 24, 2023 by TomB_tx