Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[bernstein1234]

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1 minute ago, hjddd said:

the original M10R DNG has much better color neutralization。  the whole M11 series need new firmware to modify the DNG color procession 。 

For M11, I need to put in more effort to get the colors close to M10-R. Is more than just adjusting the slider. Theres also the red, yellow and other channels to take care of.

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[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb bernstein1234:

I owned the M10-R and M11-P together at some point (although have sold the latter) and I'd like to post some unscientific images for comparison (disclaimer: these images were taken around the same location but at different times of the day but should be still valid to some extent about the magenta tint issue).

Taken with M11-P, DNG format, converted straight to JPEG in Lightroom classic. No editing done.

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Taken with M10-R, DNG format, converted straight to JPEG in Lightroom classic. No editing done.

 

As we can see, M11-P default DNG is indeed magenta while M10-R is slightly greenish yellow (at least using my LR Classic). What will happen if I make edits to these DNGs to try and see if we can bring M11-P and M10-R images closer?

Thank You! Do we need more evidence for the magenta cast?

[lct]

31 minutes ago, elmars said:

[...] Do we need more evidence for the magenta cast?

We i don't know but i suppose you don't with LR and/or other Adobe raw converters.

Edited December 10, 2023 by lct

[MyLeicaWorld]

Since yesterday I am using gray card.. and the color is what it is supposed to be at the moment ..

[la1402]

1 hour ago, Blues Bird said:

Just wait for some chaps around here explaining to you that this a feature (and of course part of the irresistable Leica brand experience) and not a bug... 😂

It’s a hidden feature. Their first version of creating „Leica Looks“ for the M, powered by Adobe. This one is called „Psyched“. 😇

[bcaslis]

4 hours ago, elmars said:

Thank You! Do we need more evidence for the magenta cast?

All this says is that the M11 and M10-R are different. Who designated the M10-R as correct? They are both off just in different directions.

I don't judge every camera by what the M10-R produces.

[elmars]

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I did not say that the tin of the M10-R is right, but the tint of the M11 is obviously too magenta. 

[don daniel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb bcaslis:

All this says is that the M11 and M10-R are different. Who designated the M10-R as correct? They are both off just in different directions.

I don't judge every camera by what the M10-R produces.

t's just that the M11 is completely wrong here. I'll say it again: The M11 cannot perform a natural, realistic white balance. It just can't, because Leica has not yet taken seriously that this is a problem. However, the M11 can really represent colors very well once the white balance is corrected. Leica can improve this if they really care about it in Wetzlar. Everyone will benefit from it when it happens. Including those who simply can't perceive it due to a vision impairment. In the eyes of others, their pictures will no longer display completely wrong colors, but will instead simply reproduce them in a normal, natural way. So, please, please, Leica: Do what is necessary here!

[marchyman]

5 hours ago, lct said:

We i don't know but i suppose you don't with LR and/or other Adobe raw converters.

I use LrC and do not see the tint... because I use a color profile I created for my camera, not one from Leica or Adobe.  I'm guessing that your image editor also uses a profile that did not come from Adobe or Leica. 

Now think about those who want to use out-of-camera jpeg files without editing.  There have been comments on this site from those who prefer the camera do their raw processing.   They see the magenta tint.  Only Leica can change that.

 

[lct]

•

Edited December 10, 2023 by lct

[lct]

17 minutes ago, marchyman said:

[...] Now think about those who want to use out-of-camera jpeg files without editing.

I have nothing against jpeg users but i think about raw users l in the first place, especially those who don't use Adobe converters. If they are like me, they don't see any significant magenta cast out of their raw converter so they don't want to endure a firmware update with any cyan or whatever color cast supposed to correct the magenta one due partly or totally to Adobe.

[jgeenen]

Taking critical pictures, I am observing a slight magenta shift not only in Adobe products but also in Iridient and Apple Raw. Haven’t tried others yet. The shift is easy to correct, either by adjusting the WB tint or by using the curves tool (set a control point in the red channel on 128 input and 125 on output, and on the blue channel by 1 unit (128->127). This can be baked into a color profile, so it is easy to adjust (and might be corrected by custom profiles in different raw converters already). My tests are not elaborated enough to judge if it is better to use the tint slider or the curve adjustment, or if the correction is similar for all images regardless of light sources or exposure, but it worked out for some dozen of my personal daylight samples already. 

I am personally confident that the Leica M11 DNG is not precisely neutral out of the box. From my point of view the same behavior can be observed from out of camera JPG in standard settings. The fact that it can be (visually) controlled for example with WB tint settings (or curves or raw converter profiles) does however not allow any conclusion that the M11 white balance is incorrect (you might call this nut picking but light mixing isn’t as simply as that).

I personally would ask Leica to review there M11 color settings and revise them if necessary (this will however create a consistency break that certainly might offend anybody who had implemented a color neutral workflow already). The devil sits in the detail- make the one group happy that does not like the current color response of the M11, or the other group that has arranged themselves with the M11 colors?

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, Blues Bird said:

Just wait for some chaps around here explaining to you that this a feature (and of course part of the irresistable Leica brand experience) and not a bug... 😂

I think most people who disagree with you have been overwhelmed by boredom. This thread has just become an echo chamber.

Sure it's important to you. But that doesn't mean it has to be important to everyone.

[hjddd]

4 hours ago, don daniel said:

只是M11在这里是完全错误的。我再说一遍：M11无法表现出自然、真实的白平衡。它就是不能，因为徕卡还没有认真对待这是一个问题。不过，一旦校正了白平衡，M11确实可以很好地表现色彩。如果徕卡真的关心韦茨拉尔的话，他们可以改进这一点。当它发生时，每个人都会受益。包括那些由于视力障碍而根本无法感知的人。在别人眼中，他们的照片将不再显示完全错误的颜色，而是简单地以正常、自然的方式再现它们。所以，请徕卡：做必要的事情！

absolutely right。 The M11 cannot perform a natural, realistic white balance …… we can also tell this from the processed JPG come from the camera 

[bcaslis]

5 hours ago, don daniel said:

t's just that the M11 is completely wrong here. I'll say it again: The M11 cannot perform a natural, realistic white balance. It just can't, because Leica has not yet taken seriously that this is a problem. However, the M11 can really represent colors very well once the white balance is corrected. Leica can improve this if they really care about it in Wetzlar. Everyone will benefit from it when it happens. Including those who simply can't perceive it due to a vision impairment. In the eyes of others, their pictures will no longer display completely wrong colors, but will instead simply reproduce them in a normal, natural way. So, please, please, Leica: Do what is necessary here!

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's very clear you don't like it but there are many cases where I see the white balance to be correct in that it's reflecting what I see. In some cases it not perfect in that it's not the value from a grey card but it's what my eye sees. But frankly this whole topic is exhausting for a "problem" that can be fixed with one click. I'll say again, I have never seen any camera from any manufacturer to have perfect white balance.

[hjddd]

2 hours ago, bcaslis said:

我们必须同意不同意。很明显你不喜欢它，但在很多情况下我认为白平衡是正确的，因为它反映了我所看到的。在某些情况下，它并不完美，因为它不是灰卡的值，而是我的眼睛看到的值。但坦率地说，对于一个可以一键解决的“问题”来说，整个主题令人筋疲力尽。我再说一遍，我从未见过任何制造商的任何相机具有完美的白平衡。

but neither any company process DNG with such strange purplish tint……nor older models process such color problem from M8 to M10R

[bcaslis]

18 minutes ago, hjddd said:

but neither any company process DNG with such strange purplish tint……nor older models process such color problem from M8 to M10R

I don't agree with your characterization. The M11 profile is heavily biased to magenta but that is easy to change to anything else. I never use the M11 profile it makes red objects appear to be neon magenta. But most of the argument here is on white balance. I've never seen a camera with perfect white balance. If that is critical to you, every camera I've ever seen needs adjustment. I don't a reason to single out the M11 of having a "problem" unless you want to say every camera has a problem. I know most of the people in this thread feel otherwise but I'm willing to bet there are just as many people who think it is fine. And don't think previous M cameras are the gold standard like some here do.

[LocalHero1953]

The M8 had a major problem with colours from day 1, which were fixed with an IR filter - they couldn't be fixed with a firmware upgrade. The M9 colours I found a bit garish, and continued to have a lesser but still unfixable magenta/red bias from IR contamination. The M240 colours were said to be muddy and brown/yellow - I found them OK. I can see green in some of the M10 images posted here. I made my own profiles for M9, M240, CL, SL. I haven't felt the need to do so for the SL2-S, but then most of what I do with the SL2-S is indoors with artificial, often stage lighting, whose colour is often heavily tinted, and has notches and peaks in the frequency spectrum - so I always adjust the WB of my images. But I accept that there are plenty of people, perhaps the majority, who are looking at scenes in natural external light - and this thread makes it clear that some of them want a WB that, SOOC, matches what they think it should be. I don't have a problem with their concerns - as long as they don't expect the rest of us to share them. If Leica makes a change to its algorithm to accommodate this view, that would be fine by me - I would still check and adjust the WB on every single shot, as I do now.

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[jgeenen]

I tried the curve profile described yesterday to a good number of M11 pictures taken in sunlight, overcast and various artificial light sources and found:

• The color temperature setting out of camera - regardless of fixed or auto - is not bad at all.
• Virtually every photo - according to my taste - benefits from a treated tone curve with slightly reduced red and blue channels (red 128->125, blue 128->127)
• After applying this curve adjustment, there is usually no need to manipulate the color tint of WB at all.
• Until now I haven't found any sample where the curve adjustment makes the result worse than before.

My personal conclusion:

• It is not the M11 white balance that is off, it is the color baseline of the M11 that some people (including myself) don't like.
• Applying an import profile with slightly reduced red and blue channels creates a starting point that is a good starting point for further tuning and almost always sufficient for less critical observation.

If someone is interested in my settings as a starting point for further tests, see the attached screenshots from Lightroom Classic's curve editor. Please let me know, if you have a different opinion/solution. As I mentioned earlier, my setup is not fully calibrated and I haven't completed tests yet (in particular I need to do some prints)

The M11 profile of DxO 5 seems to apply some magenta corrections to the color as well and usually does not need a treatment similar to LrC. Capture One 22 on the other hand seems to behave similar to LrC (I don't have the latest releases of DxO or C1, that might have changed) (judging from two or three sample images I did on the fly)

 

 

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[lct]

35 minutes ago, jgeenen said:

• [...] It is not the M11 white balance that is off, it is the color baseline of the M11 that some people (including myself) don't like.
• Applying an import profile with slightly reduced red and blue channels creates a starting point that is a good starting point for further tuning and almost always sufficient for less critical observation.[...]

For those disliking the M11 profile, i would not rule out the simple fix consisting in replacing it with a generic one, as suggested (see below). Can be done with a couple of clicks in iCorrect for those interested. Now i don't have to replace the M11 profile with Silkypix that i find immune from magenta or red cast in its "faithful" setting per se.