Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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 I downloaded a bunch of M11 DNGs from DPReview for another purpose and using ACR at default settings (Adobe Color) could not detect a hint of Magenta. Perfect colours, in fact.  It turned out that the XMP files were not read. When applying the XMP files they needed -5 in Magenta. So it seems that the answer is to disable the XMP file at import..

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[sdk]

I shoot DNG only on my M11, and I have profiled the camera (and my previous Leica M-P, and my Nikon D850 and Ricoh GRIII) with Xrite's ColorChecker Passport and their Lightroom plugin. The calibrated profile produces much more accurate color than the standard built in Leica M11 profile coming out of the camera. Xrite has rebranded themselves as Calibrite now, which still makes the Passport. You can make dual illuminant profiles if you capture the target in more than one lighting condition, such as sun and shade, or sun and tungsten. Calibrite's standalone software can also make a profile that is used by other Adobe software including Adobe Camera Raw, for people using Adobe Photoshop workflows. This kind of profiling only works for DNGs, not JPGs. Images from different digital cameras developed with calibrated profiles are much closer to matching each other than images using Adobe or camera manufacturer profiles, which can make life easier for people with multiple systems or different brands.

I recently upgraded to the Calibrite ColorChecker Digital SG, which is a larger target than their Passport, with more hues and tones of blue, green, red and skin colored swatches, so that this target can produces slightly better profiles with the Calibrite ColorChecker software or Lightroom plugin, but it has some disadvantages too. The Digital SG is big and less portable, and more expensive than the Passport. The Passport folds into its own clamshell case that can fit in a shirt pocket or camera bag easily, can be set to stand up like a little easel almost anywhere, and also has a useful back side with grey and white targets for on location white balance reference photos. The Digital SG target can also be used to calibrate flatbed scanners, if your scanner software supports it.

https://calibrite.com/us/product-category/photographers/

[hmzimelka]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

This is the Leica profile that's embedded into the DNG. If one uses Adobe standard or Adobe color then nothing in this screen shot has any bearing on the end result. 

The effect of the camera's WB is manifest from the AsShotNeutral tag found in the DNG, not the ColorMatrices shown here. 

Leica can change the WB behaviour by changing the algorithm that produces the ASN tag. 

An over simplified version of the maths would be

ASN x CMs = colours 

You can patch this somewhat by creating your own profile, which means making new CMs

ASN x New CMs = new colours 

The CMs of the adobe profiles and the Leica profiles are never the same

Every camera ever does not have a limitless well of colour to draw from, it is always a compromise somewhere 

You can see how it works in principle looking at your screen shot of the CM

Top line (either table) 

Take this much red then subtract this much green, subtract this much blue 

Like in all maths the numbers have to go somewhere.. So if (theoretically) we take red out of the red channel, we can't throw it away, we have to distribute it in either/or the green and blue channels. 

Personally if it were me, and I appreciate it's not, M9/10R user here, I'd write a post demosaication PLUT that globally reduced the WB tint and probably try and manipulate the Forward Matrices a bit. 

This would ultimately be a fudge, but it should work reasonably well for a reasonable amount of images 

Thanks! 

[don daniel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

 I downloaded a bunch of M11 DNGs from DPReview for another purpose and using ACR at default settings (Adobe Color) could not detect a hint of Magenta. Perfect colours, in fact.  It turned out that the XMP files were not read. When applying the XMP files they needed -5 in Magenta. So it seems that the answer is to disable the XMP file at import..

Do you know whether they have been shot using AWB? And how do I desable the XMP file at import?

[jaapv]

In Camera Raw --> Preferences --> File Handling --> Ignore sidecar XMP Files.

In my case I was simply too quick. I opened the DNG before the XMP file had downloaded.😅

I would be surprised if DPReview had used anything but AWB to shoot dozens of sample files.

 

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[Adam Bonn]

2 hours ago, sdk said:

The Digital SG is big and less portable, and more expensive than the Passport.

In the UK there’s nearly £300 different between the CC24 and SG.

 

[Adam Bonn]

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Is DNG cleaner app still a thing?

I wonder what’s in those xmp files now..

[don daniel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

In Camera Raw --> Preferences --> File Handling --> Ignore sidecar XMP Files.

In my case I was simply too quick. I opened the DNG before the XMP file had downloaded.😅

I would be surprised if DPReview had used anything but AWB to shoot dozens of sample files.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Could you just show the effect of this with an own shot? I tried but the click on "ignore sidecar XMP files" does not change the colors, not even a little bit. 

[jaapv]

This is the example from DPR:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mlwt9ff5l4oa2p44fwrnp/L1000877.DNG?rlkey=zcfdpk7xr915lkclnaozcdq62&dl=0

[jaapv]

https://m.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/9356330178/leica-q3-sample-gallery#&gid=1&pid=19

[don daniel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

This is the example from DPR:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mlwt9ff5l4oa2p44fwrnp/L1000877.DNG?rlkey=zcfdpk7xr915lkclnaozcdq62&dl=0

Is this before or after your treatment? Because it shows the usual magenta cast.

[jaapv]

I did not treat anything. I looked at the image on my recently calibrated Eizo CS screen and saw nothing that would bother me. In fact, I found the colours rather nice even if slightly over saturated for my taste. I looked at it with Magenta pulled down to 0 and that created a rather flat and uninteresting sky. Maybe a touch of Cyan at that setting. If this is your Magenta cast I will accept it any day. However the image before it of the skyscrapers does have some magenta which one twitch of the tint slider corrected. That is the thing about digital colour. Everybody can tweak it to taste. The camera output is relatively unimportant. 

[don daniel]

Just so I understand you correctly: You haven't actually reviewed any of your own images from your M11. You download DNGs from a website, without knowing what white balance settings were used. Then you experiment with them and make judgments about whether the M11 produces a magenta cast or not. The white balance in the image you posted is problematic in two ways: it's too cold and has a magenta bias. But your advice always seems to head in the same direction: For you, there apparently isn't a problem that Leica needs to address and resolve. Instead, according to you, it's always the image editor on the computer who is responsible for the output.

[jaapv]

No - it is the user of the raw converter/PP software who is responsible for the output, like always and with any camera. It is not like it is something that requires effort or superior skill to do.
Leica may well tweak the output to facilitate some users, but it is not worth getting all worked up about. Other times that they had to tweak the colour output of the camera (balance between outdoor and indoor lighting (M8), oversaturated reds (M240) were much more difficult to handle. There they needed to update the firmware. In this case it would be a courtesy, but not a need.

[lct]

Same image adjusted with a couple of clicks in iCorrect below. The corrected color cast is cyan for the most part. FWIW
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gkSjvL9/0/9a6dedbf/X4/i-gkSjvL9-X4.jpg

[jaapv]

I did not bother to do anything to those examples. Thanks.

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, don daniel said:

Just so I understand you correctly: You haven't actually reviewed any of your own images from your M11. You download DNGs from a website, without knowing what white balance settings were used. Then you experiment with them and make judgments about whether the M11 produces a magenta cast or not. The white balance in the image you posted is problematic in two ways: it's too cold and has a magenta bias. But your advice always seems to head in the same direction: For you, there apparently isn't a problem that Leica needs to address and resolve. Instead, according to you, it's always the image editor on the computer who is responsible for the output.

that is funny

I don't find any of my cameras responsible for color balance, for me it is a starting point and every image gets adjusted to fit in the story with multiple images, sometimes from different cameras, to create a harmonies gallery.

I don't care if this camera is this way or another way. It is up to you to interpret the location before capture and work within the restriction of the hardware. You can pick from what is correct for the job. Color is subjective, and many factors can influence the outcome. Calibration, software, and profiles will make a difference.

For me, using a new camera means testing every option, learning it inside and out, and being prepared for situations to come to make the correct decisions.

I like the results I am getting out of my M11

 

and then there is  Ai that can make you happy with whatever you may dream up.

 

[jaapv]

You are arguing against the school of thought that the camera must take and produce the photograph without any input from the photographer bar pressing the shutter button.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[don daniel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Blues Bird:

I certainly sympathise with your cause, but I think you're doing neither it nor yourself a favour by adopting such a snarky tone...

Sorry, that was not my intention.  But I am still trying to find out if people here speak based on their own experience with the M11 or if they give us advice from a rather theoretical point of view. 

[LocalHero1953]

Now all we need to do to solve this conundrum is to decide who has average eyes and average brain - and what colours they see - and how the average brain responds to them.

Simple. We could end this thread in a moment.

Edited December 6, 2023 by LocalHero1953