Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jgeenen]

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vor 51 Minuten schrieb Derbyshire Man:

It's nonsense, I don't have an issue on my M11M at all.

You don't know what you don't see.

It might well be that the magenta tint influences the tonality of roses and pink(y) finger nails ...

[Lee S]

1 hour ago, Derbyshire Man said:

It's nonsense, I don't have an issue on my M11M at all.

Glad they fixed it for the M11M!

[lct]

Leica won't change anything hopefully. Just a matter of setting WB. Otherwise a bit of red saturation that is easy to adjust in PP if needed. Bis repetita placent 😉

[M11 for me]

In the video we see a grain field. To me this is special anyway. Its very tricky to give it the "right" colour anyway. Its either too yellow/green or too read. Plus in the video he proposes to choose the Adobe Day Light white balance which again I would not do. When you photograph nature with lots of green then the ooc of the M11 is the far better option for DNG.

Again I do not speak of users who want to use JPGs staight ooc for whatever reasons. In my case I never use the JPGs.

[M11 for me]

vor einer Stunde schrieb lct:

Leica won't change anything hopefully. Just a matter of setting WB

Lets take the Q3. This camera certainly does not have any magenta tint. But as a result it renders much too blue and "cold" (think of a green field). The ooc images have to get a warmer WB in post. I have to work on the WB anyway and on any camera. I prefer the ooc of the M11 to the Q3 by far. In many cases the M11 renders beautifully: I think here of all my winter images with the low evening sun and the long shadows with red skies. Beautiful colours. And such an image needs to be edited much more than just the WB in order to show the colourful sky as we see it with our eyes. The WB is the least we have to do. And its the least of the problems in post processing.

[jaapv]

22 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

In the video we see a grain field. To me this is special anyway. Its very tricky to give it the "right" colour anyway. Its either too yellow/green or too read. Plus in the video he proposes to choose the Adobe Day Light white balance which again I would not do. When you photograph nature with lots of green then the ooc of the M11 is the far better option for DNG.

Again I do not speak of users who want to use JPGs staight ooc for whatever reasons. In my case I never use the JPGs.

Well said. Colour is subjective and  even culturally determined anyway. BTW the new Adobe Adaptive profile (beta) might do a good job. Topaz Photo AI -which I use in 90% of my post-processing- has an Adjust Colout option. 

[jhonzatkl]

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As I have already written in this thread. From my own experience I know that Leica is able to solve the "magenta tint" problem. However, I believe that at this stage it will certainly not solve it at the firmware level. I believe that the solution will only be available as a service request.

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Well said. Colour is subjective ...

Of course, in a certain way it is  always rue to say that everything, really everything, that is subject to human perception is subjective. What else could it be - that is in the nature of things.

But that is precisely why such ‘truisms’ are only very, very rarely helpful when it comes to questions of human perception. Of course, the perception of colours is subjective, but for an overwhelming number of people, red is red, green is green and blue is blue.  Therefore, a magenta tint, as in the case of the M11, cannot simply be dismissed by saying that this problem only has to do with subjective perception. To a certain extent, a "critical mass" of viewers who notice that the SOOC images of the M11 have a magenta tint are enough to objectify the problem. This "critical mass" is undoubtedly given in our case. 

[jaapv]

Critical mass? A number of internet posts does not create a statistical universe. It is a self-confirming bubble. Maybe you are not familiar with slide film? Ektachrome was blue/purple,, Kodachrome reddish, Agfachrome greenish/brown, Fuji cyan/blue. Yet all were used to create great photographs. I think that in the digital age colour is the responsibility of the photographer, not of the camera or some anonymous technician.

[la1402]

I think we are turning in circles here. Yes, the M11 magenta tint can be easily fixed in post and for some subjects it can even help. But I understand people who would like a more neutral starting position for post . And when you just want to quickly share a picture via smartphone, it would be nice not having to run it via LR for tint correction. It’s not the end of the world, it just seems so unnecessary. 

[jaapv]

For sharing on Instagram? With a Leica? Umm.. Smartphone territory. And there is Snapseed.

[lct]

1 hour ago, la1402 said:

[...] I understand people who would like a more neutral starting position for post . And when you just want to quickly share a picture via smartphone, it would be nice not having to run it via LR for tint correction [...]

Or not. Colors are a matter of taste. I often use M11 jpegs as starting point for post personally. YMMV.

[CDodkin]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Critical mass? A number of internet posts does not create a statistical universe. It is a self-confirming bubble. Maybe you are not familiar with slide film? Ektachrome was blue/purple,, Kodachrome reddish, Agfachrome greenish/brown, Fuji cyan/blue. Yet all were used to create great photographs. I think that in the digital age colour is the responsibility of the photographer, not of the camera or some anonymous technician.

A lot of those color shifts in film were culturally driven, as you noted. Asian cultures tend to favor blues and greens, and cool lighting. It's no accident that Fuji Film packaging is green and blue, and their films strongly bias to green and blue. Western cultures tend to favor yellows and reds, and warmer lighting. Again it's no accident that Kodak film packaging is yellow and red, and their films strongly bias to yellows and reds.

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[hdmesa]

Film color bias is different from digital tint bias. Film bias looks good on the whole as the film stock's palette was crafted around it. Magenta tint bias on digital just looks like shit, like a painter that used a wash of magenta as the final coat over the entire painting.

[Derbyshire Man]

12 hours ago, jhonzatkl said:

As I have already written in this thread. From my own experience I know that Leica is able to solve the "magenta tint" problem. However, I believe that at this stage it will certainly not solve it at the firmware level. I believe that the solution will only be available as a service request.

I don’t know how it works but conceptually Isn’t the most likely thing that they recalibrate the sensor with a new LUT for the DNG? In other words analogous to using one of the commercially available profiling packages for use at the import to LR/C1 stage?

 

I appreciate that’s not going to help in camera JPEG’s unlike Leica updating what must be a hidden internal file accessed via a service menu or similar. 
 

Caution: I’m making this up as I’m going along!

[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

For sharing on Instagram? With a Leica? Umm.. Smartphone territory. And there is Snapseed.

You're not up to date, Leica has moved on. The Leica app offers functions that make it easy to share photos on social media. The new background transfer also serves this purpose almost exclusively.

Apart from that: I don't want to talk anyone out of their taste in colour. I often really like the magenta tint. But that's not the point. It is too much of a flavour and too far removed from a good, expectable starting point for further processing. You notice this immediately when you look at photos from other cameras at the same time as those from the M11. This applies both to photos from the iPhone (which will of course be turned upside down here again), but also to photos from the Q3 or SL3, which have the same sensor!!!! But a completely different adjustment of the white balance! What's the point of that?

 

[jaapv]

Nothing to do with up to date. Of course.one can use the Leica app etc.  But it still is like using the Ferrari to take the kids to school. And too many here have pointed out that it is the photographer who sets the import profile of the postprocessing software.

BTW. The colour is not determined by the sensor which is an analog monochrome device but by the Bayer filter and firmware. The cameras you mention have a completely different filter stack. You could not exchange the respective sensors. The only thing they have in common is the base silicon. 

[Derbyshire Man]

3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Tnothing to do with up to date. Of course.one can use the Leica app etc.  But it still is like using the Ferrari to take the kids to school. 

Lucky kids

[otto.f]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is a self-confirming bubble

from both sides though. and the pro and against parties are just repeating themselves quite some weeks now

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[jaapv]

They are probably totally miserable because kids want to conform to their peer group. 

 

9 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Lucky kids