Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[M11 for me]

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In many landscape images I love the tint out of cam of the M11:

Here tint pushed from 19 ooc to 25! Summicron 28mm

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and here 3 images with tint ooc (unchanged): 28mm Summicron

Edited December 26, 2023 by M11 for me

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[don daniel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

Thank you Daniel, that is why I proposed to push the slider down to 17. But to my liking not as far down as 10.

You might be right with my eye sight though. I have no clue if you are right. Maybe we should go together to the optician: I see green where there is none and you see magenta. 

But to be franc: I appreciate your perseveration. Hopefully you will get some satisfaction by Leica. 

I think I might post a link to a few DNGs and we can individually show each other, how we would like them to look.  

[M11 for me]

Thank you Daniel. That is a great idea. I would love to work on a few photographs in Lighroom. We could then either exchange or publish here.

I wonder as well if it is true that there are differences between cameras as reported above. That would bring the problem to a different level. 

[radialMelt]

A couple of days ago I went to a Leica store to check out the Q3 and the M11p with color rendition in mind. I used to shoot an M10p and struggled a lot with skin tones. I eventually sold it because of my color difficulties and went full analog. The newest generations of digital Leicas have been tempting, however.

Looking at the files side by side (same scene, same time of day) the tint differential is significant even when viewing the files on the rear LCD (all files live on the same SD card so it was easy for me to do this). Interestingly enough though, I noticed that the magenta cast of the M11p also seems dependent on the lens used (or perhaps the embedded lens profile). I tried the Leica 28/2 (lens profile in LR = 28mm Summicron) and a Voigtlander 35/1.4 (lens profile in LR = "Leica R to M adapter" as it is uncoded) and the 28/2 recorded significantly more magenta images than the Voigtlander. Exposures were not exactly the same (iso 400 vs 800) but otherwise I would have expected the output to be very similar, obvious lens rendering differences aside.

[Kwesi]

11 minutes ago, radialMelt said:

I noticed that the magenta cast of the M11p also seems dependent on the lens used (or perhaps the embedded lens profile)

Not sure you can draw that conclusion from your testing method. You would have to use the same lens with the profile on and then off to see if it made any difference in the amount of the color cast in the image

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, radialMelt said:

A couple of days ago I went to a Leica store to check out the Q3 and the M11p with color rendition in mind. I used to shoot an M10p and struggled a lot with skin tones. I eventually sold it because of my color difficulties and went full analog. The newest generations of digital Leicas have been tempting, however.

Looking at the files side by side (same scene, same time of day) the tint differential is significant even when viewing the files on the rear LCD (all files live on the same SD card so it was easy for me to do this). Interestingly enough though, I noticed that the magenta cast of the M11p also seems dependent on the lens used (or perhaps the embedded lens profile). I tried the Leica 28/2 (lens profile in LR = 28mm Summicron) and a Voigtlander 35/1.4 (lens profile in LR = "Leica R to M adapter" as it is uncoded) and the 28/2 recorded significantly more magenta images than the Voigtlander. Exposures were not exactly the same (iso 400 vs 800) but otherwise I would have expected the output to be very similar, obvious lens rendering differences aside.

Basically the lens profile should not influence the colour rendering of the camera. But - originally profiles were conceived to try and mitigate the cyan vignetting of the M8 with IR cut filters, so it would not be surprising if an overcompensation towards the corners does occur  at certain apertures on some lenses and that non-Leica lenses differ. 

Secondly, it has been known since the early days of Kodachrome that different lenses do render colours differently, caused by variations in light transmission of different types of optical glass and coatings. Lens makers tend to attempt to keep lens colour rendering similar throughout the range, but that is not always 100% possible and different brands will have different colour signatures.
What we really should do in this thread is to have all participants use the same lens.🤔

So even if your findings may be of interest to those who learn the characteristics of their gear to be able to get optimal results, in general they are of no interest to the question in this thread. 

 

As an aside:

Skin tones have been discussed extensively in this forum and various methods to remedy the issues have been suggested. It is OT for this thread, but I will mention one basic remedy:
All M cameras leak IR light. Human skin both reflects and absorbs IR light in layers of upper skin, fat, small blood vessels, etc, but not uniformly. These layers vary in thickness, causing blotches of colour variation (notably Magenta, sometimes Yellow, on Caucasian skin, Blue on dark skin, etc.),  especially under flash or  some  types of studio lights (high IR !)
The simple remedy is to use an IR cut filter. (on focal lengths over 35 mm). 

Back to the original discussion...😉

[jaapv]

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On 12/26/2023 at 6:41 PM, M11 for me said:

You might be right with my eye sight though. I have no clue if you are right. Maybe we should go together to the optician: I see green where there is none and you see magenta. 

 

Maybe not even your eyesight - obviously there are differences between individuals' eyes and the postprocessing machine in the brain, but is has been proven that there are significant cultural differences in colour perception. Americans do not see colours like Europeans do,  East Asians differ from both. Location makes a difference too. Compare a classic Italian landscape painting with Ikea colours. Compare slide films between Fuji, Kodak and Agfa.

[M11 for me]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Compare slide films between Fuji, Kodak and Agfa

Thank you for your most interesting explanations.

I was the clear Kodak fan (for slides and prints). I loved those colours. Am I the american type?

Agfa was always too green and Fuji I cannot remember anymore 😄

Edited January 5, 2024 by M11 for me

[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

Skin tones have been discussed extensively in this forum and various methods to remedy the issues have been suggested. It is OT for this thread, but I will mention one basic remedy:
All M cameras leak IR light. Human skin both reflects and absorbs IR light in layers of upper skin, fat, small blood vessels, etc, but not uniformly. These layers vary in thickness, causing blotches of colour variation (notably Magenta, sometimes Yellow, on Caucasian skin, Blue on dark skin, etc.),  especially under flash or  some  types of studio lights (high IR !)
The simple remedy is to use an IR cut filter. (on focal lengths over 35 mm). 

You've been writing this over and over again for years. Can you back this up with pictures? A long time ago I did a comparison with and without an IR filter (on the M10, if I remember correctly), but I didn't see any difference.

[radialMelt]

In case someone wishes to see what I am seeing, here is a screenshot from LR (FYI, I see the same reviewing on the camera's LCD). No adjustments in LR, and color profile is Adobe Color (same results with the "Leica M11" profile as well). Lens corrections turned off.

From left to right, Q3, M11P with 28/2, M11P with Voigtlander 35/1.5.

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I'm sure all of this can be corrected for in post processing, but it is interesting to see the differences nevertheless.

P.S. bonus points if you can guess the Leica store (without sleuthing signs and license plates!)

Edited January 5, 2024 by radialMelt

[hjddd]

50 minutes ago, radialMelt said:

如果有人想看看我所看到的，这里是 LR 的屏幕截图（仅供参考，我在相机的液晶显示屏上看到了相同的评论）。LR 中没有调整，颜色配置文件是 Adobe Color（与“Leica M11”配置文件的结果相同）。镜头校正已关闭。

从左到右，Q3、M11P 搭配 28/2、M11P 搭配福伦达 35/1.5。

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我确信所有这些都可以在后期处理中纠正，但看到这些差异仍然很有趣。

PS：如果你能猜出徕卡商店（无需侦查标志和车牌！）

yes I have same experience……so who else still wants to defense that M11 series do not have problem……

[M11 for me]

I cannot confirm this result here (28mm image). Intersting enough Just yesterday I came across a post here in the forum writen by a London based Pro who compared M11 images at a venue with images taken with Canon R camera at the same venue from another photographer. He subsequently praised the beautiful M11 colors (his own images) compared to M11. I do actually not agree with that either but it shows that there are indeed Pros with M11 who document venues and praise the M11 results to no end. He is a photographer with own company and being active for well ower 20 years and he still gies with M cameras and must know very well what he does.

I would like to post the link but can't find. Sorry for that.

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, M11 for me said:

Thank you for your most interesting explanations.

I was the clear Kodak fan (for slides and prints). I loved those colours. Am I the american type?

Agfa was always too green and Fuji I cannot remember anymore 😄

Fuji blue. 

[don daniel]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb radialMelt:

In case someone wishes to see what I am seeing, here is a screenshot from LR (FYI, I see the same reviewing on the camera's LCD). No adjustments in LR, and color profile is Adobe Color (same results with the "Leica M11" profile as well). Lens corrections turned off.

From left to right, Q3, M11P with 28/2, M11P with Voigtlander 35/1.5.

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I'm sure all of this can be corrected for in post processing, but it is interesting to see the differences nevertheless.

P.S. bonus points if you can guess the Leica store (without sleuthing signs and license plates!)

Well, it's difficult to judge from just a screenshot. The image on the left obviously came out much cooler than the other two. The one in the middle shows the normal magenta cast or even a rather rude one. The one on the right, shot with the Voigtlander lens also shows a magenta cast, but you get blue corners in addition because you did not use any lens profile. With a Voigtländer lens you can try the profile of the Summicron (!) 35mm asph. Color shift towards blue to the corners or to the sides should be minimized then. But you will still have to correct the white balance in post or you do this with a grey card on place before taking the shot. Today I have used my watch as a target for the white balance. The strap is made of stainless steel and reflects the light very well. I do the instant white balance with one hand by aiming the cross at the watch strap. This worked quite well today, even with changes in lighting. This, as an example for this method, is a camera JPG, cropped, but not edited or processed. You cannot get such a balanced result with AWB or with one of the fixed WB-Settings. They would all fail.

Edited January 5, 2024 by don daniel

[MT0227]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:35 AM, don daniel said:

This results in even more magenta than when using AWB and LR. C1 shows more saturated colours than LR from the start. And if you set the camera's white balance to daylight, you will get a stronger magenta cast than if you use AWB.  And the magenta bias of a DNG is no less pronounced in C1 than in LR. But maybe the C1 version I tried a month ago is out of date and there is a newer one that solves the problem. In that case, you are welcome to post a result here.

M11-P | 35APO | C1 Pro  

I'm pretty happy with how C1 handles the AWB - 4812K; Tint -1.1.  I using the current version of C1 Pro and my M11 is updated to the latest firmware.

For the most part, people see color differently anyway.  Leica does a fine job in my opinion of getting it right to where it then becomes a slight adjustment to how - you - like to see color.   

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Edited January 6, 2024 by MT0227

[don daniel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb MT0227:

M11-P | 35APO | C1 Pro  

I'm pretty happy with how C1 handles the AWB - 4812K; Tint -1.1.  I using the current version of C1 Pro and my M11 is updated to the latest firmware.

For the most part, people see color differently anyway.  Leica does a fine job in my opinion of getting it right to where it then becomes a slight adjustment to how - you - like to see color.   

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Colors look really nice here!

[Xavi]

Do you think it has been fixed with the firmware fixes?
I bought the 11-P in July and after the last update I am not able to notice that magenta you are talking about.

[JLV]

Hi all,

Following the use of an M9 for 14 loyal years, I purchased an M11. (2 years ago)

I have been disappointed with what is usually called the "Magenta shift"...

Then comes the Light   !!

A course from Nath Sakura (french fashion photographer based in Montpellier and teacher) opened my eyes.

Her technic is that we have to "expose to the right " to use the full capacities of the sensor.

To do so, she set the camera to over expose at 1,33 (yes you read well) and use the spot metering shooting and blocking the exposure to the part of the image which gets the most light.

With this way of metering, no more magenta shift, beautiful colours.

She says too: Do NOT trust you camera screen which lies to you, the Jpegs you will see will seem to be overexposed but RAW with linear  will be perfectly exposed.

So, the danger is to under expose what I usually did.

The M11 is a fantastic camera!

Best,

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pedaes]

50 minutes ago, JLV said:

"expose to the right

The ETTR mantra was/is sound if properly understood (the late and much missed Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape invented the term in the early days of digital capture), but has been largely tempered by the increase in dynamic range of current sensors, and the huge amount of shadow detail that can be recovered. As ever, just don't 'blow' the highlights or there will be zero highlight information in your RAW file.

Totally agree M11 colours are great from a correctly exposed and processed RAW file.

[LBJ2]

5 hours ago, JLV said:

Hi all,

Following the use of an M9 for 14 loyal years, I purchased an M11. (2 years ago)

I have been disappointed with what is usually called the "Magenta shift"...

Then comes the Light   !!

A course from Nath Sakura (french fashion photographer based in Montpellier and teacher) opened my eyes.

Her technic is that we have to "expose to the right " to use the full capacities of the sensor.

To do so, she set the camera to over expose at 1,33 (yes you read well) and use the spot metering shooting and blocking the exposure to the part of the image which gets the most light.

With this way of metering, no more magenta shift, beautiful colours.

She says too: Do NOT trust you camera screen which lies to you, the Jpegs you will see will seem to be overexposed but RAW with linear  will be perfectly exposed.

So, the danger is to under expose what I usually did.

The M11 is a fantastic camera!

Best,

I'll give the +1,33 exposure plus spot metering a try.

So far I've been having good results setting the M11 to 18% gray card for those blue skies, white cloud, gray cement scenes that cause the M11 files to tint magenta when imported into Lightroom Classic. I'm still testing the 18% gray card setting in different scenarios, so not yet 100% conclusive, but looks promising for the scenes I described. 

Edited September 17, 2024 by LBJ2