To M11-P, or not to M11-P…That is the Question

[maidenfan84]

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I’ve basically came to the point that I plan to keep an M camera for many years and new is going to be my best option. With that said, is an M11-P a solid purchase, or does it seem like there’s still way too many hiccups with it? I did come across a nice looking used M10 standard but then again, it’s already some years old and my aim is to at least get 8-10 solid years of shooting out of the camera. Even more if the camera can handle it. What would your suggestion be on how to proceed? Also, if purchased from a Leica store in the US, will they exchange the camera if it’s a dud on arrival or will they force me to ship it to Germany? 

[otto.f]

3 minutes ago, maidenfan84 said:

will they exchange the camera

I’m afraid not. In my experience the store refers you to Leica if it doesn’t work properly, even when you just bought it. And there are shops where you can try the camera, but not the one you buy. I was lucky to have a dealer who used to test the camera that I was to buy, but these are exceptions and he’s retired now. I have no experience with -P camera’s  but with the non-P versions it’s quite common that the rangefinder of a newly bought M needs adjustment. It’s insane for a camera of that price, but that’s the charm of a rangefinder 😉

[evikne]

You could also consider an M10-R. It's an improved version of the M10, including better dynamic range, but without many of the new features of the M11.

Edited November 8, 2023 by evikne

[grahamc]

I shared the same 'future proofing' concerns and so really wanted to like the M11 but tested it next to my 10 and much preferred the M10 images and colours.

So dependant on your needs you might not require the latest and greatest as many believe we are at the point of diminishing returns now for sensor tech unless you are printing very large.    I haven't tried 10-R but am curious to do so now

In the meantime an hour side by side with 10 and 11 really gave me a reality check for the type of images I need/like to make 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by grahamc

[maidenfan84]

I remember I spent a weekend with a rented M10 a while back and I enjoyed it quite a bit. Great pics were hit or miss, but I boil that down to me keep forgetting that it’s center metering and not full matrix etc fancy stuff. I’m from the days of film, started out with a Minolta X700 and then got an older Canon F1, Pentax k1000, etc so I’m very simple in what I expect out of a camera. Speed, shutter, and let me get to work is what works best for myself. I wonder if the M10 would be the better option as compared to the M11-P. I do like the built in ND filter I’ve read about on the M11-P but it’s not a dealbreaker that I must have it and won’t settle for less. Between the M10 and the M11-P, I’m really looking at which one will last me the longest. I tend to keep my cameras for a long time and look at them as companions in my journey through life. 

[maxpower]

I don't know about Leica US but in EU when I got my M11-P it had a tiny cosmetic flaw I noticed when I got home and they exchanged it for me without question, so I imagine they'd do the same with a real defect. If it's really a dud (or rather, DOA) and it's within 2 weeks of purchase I have to imagine that is valid reason for an exchange rather than repair? but I also don't know much about consumer rights in the US tbh.

As for a new M's rangefinder needing calibration; so far this has not been my experience but I think there are plenty of people who've bought more new than me who can share their experiences on that.

My M11-P feels like the best camera to me, but if it had the M10-P colours and resolution it would've been better imho, the dynamic range of the 11 series is nicer to work with in some scenarios though. Luckily I have both bodies and can pick what I want / feel like.

2 minutes ago, maidenfan84 said:

I do like the built in ND filter I’ve read about on the M11-P

There is no built-in ND filter, not sure where you read this? The benefit is that the 11 series has an electronic shutter which allows higher shutter speeds (unfortunately with rolling shutter) which allows you to shoot wide open without using an ND filter.

Edited November 8, 2023 by maxpower
nd filter comment

[otto.f]

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43 minutes ago, maxpower said:

I don't know about Leica US but in EU when I got my M11-P it had a tiny cosmetic flaw I noticed when I got home and they exchanged it for me without question, so I imagine they'd do the same with a real defect. If it's really a dud (or rather, DOA) and it's within 2 weeks of purchase I have to imagine that is valid reason for an exchange rather than repair? but I also don't know much about consumer rights in the US tbh.

As for a new M's rangefinder needing calibration; so far this has not been my experience but I think there are plenty of people who've bought more new than me who can share their experiences on that.

My M11-P feels like the best camera to me, but if it had the M10-P colours and resolution it would've been better imho, the dynamic range of the 11 series is nicer to work with in some scenarios though. Luckily I have both bodies and can pick what I want / feel like.

There is no built-in ND filter, not sure where you read this? The benefit is that the 11 series has an electronic shutter which allows higher shutter speeds (unfortunately with rolling shutter) which allows you to shoot wide open without using an ND filter.

might depend on the specific store where you buy, I'd advise OP to ask his store itself about this.

[la1402]

Not so sure about the M10 - that sensor felt outdated when the camera was new. The practical experience in highlight clipping was more apparent than what you would expect. The M10R would be my choice from the M10 generation.  The M11 has better DR and Noise performance than both of them. But one can live with all sensor outputs for many years to come.

You need to decide wether you want some of the new features of the M11, namely the option to shoot fully quiet, shutter speed until 1/16000, USB charging, a MUCH better battery life, a finally decent optional EVF and a great optional grip and a much lighter body. They tip the scale for me easily. 

[anbucco]

Got the M11-P – no issues so far. Love this camera! Supported from Adobe, DxO and CaptureOne will follow soon.

[rfunnell]

I traded my M10R in for the M11P and couldn't be happier after having it for a week.

Nice weight with the black one and the new material on the finish is the best I have experienced with an M camera and I have had all since the M9.

The battery is amazing compared to the M10R. 

P models are always hard to get after their initial sales have completed.

If you plan on using it for 10 years I recommend the M11P.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[algrove]

No M11-P as I already own M11's plus 2024 might bring forth many new items never seen before-100 years is 100 years.

[dpitt]

Any M10 can last till 2035. My M8 has lasted that far already (18 years now). However, not all M10s will reach 20 years before they develop an issue severe enough to call it total loss.

Leica has committed to keep all Ms serviceable for at least 10 years, and some repairs can be done beyond that period.
Production faults on the M8 and M9 have been serviced for free long after the warranty was over. In case Leica did not have parts, they offered a very good upgrade plan to a current model. On the other hand, standard repairs can get very expensive, even if parts are available.

Repairing a 9 year old M camera might not make any sense even if it can be done. That is the main reason not all will reach 20 years. At a certain age it becomes cheaper to replace it with an other used one.

So, a new M11 or M11-P will have almost 10 years of serviceability now. And a very good protection against production issues. The M10 will only have about half of that protection and serviceability. AFAIK there are no production issues known for the M10 more than 5 years after its release. Not much chance that anything systematic will show up now IMO.

[setuporg]

I’ve been on the fence since M11 launch and now am a happy camper with the M11P that I had since its own launch.  Waiting for FOTOS + CAI issue to be fixed but without an app it is a solid and fantastic camera.  Really enjoying it, worth the wait.  The battery lasts for 800 shots or so, and with 4 batteries I could do a longish trip without charging.  The 256GB internal storage is good for a few days.  The black one is a joy to hold and carry.  The stapling shutter sound became very satisfying after a while, on par with the silent shutter in M10R/M.  Recommended!

[ymc226]

I like the M11P a lot; I consigned my M11 and got the M11P knowing there was really no upgrade except in looks.  The sapphire glass, more memory and CAI were immaterial but not having the red dot was important aesthetically.  No lock ups but still in the early phase.  The M11 also did not lock up but I barely used it as well.  Not having to deal with removing the base plate, a longer lasting battery and in camera charging are all the advantages for my case in moving up from the M10 and M10R.  

[MyLeicaWorld]

15 hours ago, grahamc said:

I shared the same 'future proofing' concerns and so really wanted to like the M11 but tested it next to my 10 and much preferred the M10 images and colours.

So dependant on your needs you might not require the latest and greatest as many believe we are at the point of diminishing returns now for sensor tech unless you are printing very large.    I haven't tried 10-R but am curious to do so now

In the meantime an hour side by side with 10 and 11 really gave me a reality check for the type of images I need/like to make 

 

 

 

I have to say that you’re absolutely right.. M10 colors are much more beautiful and the white balance is much more reliable than the M11 .. if you ask me M10P is more than enough and with its silent shutter it is much more usable than the M11.. I am saying all these as a current owner of M11 and a past user of M10P ..

[MyLeicaWorld]

15 hours ago, grahamc said:

I shared the same 'future proofing' concerns and so really wanted to like the M11 but tested it next to my 10 and much preferred the M10 images and colours.

So dependant on your needs you might not require the latest and greatest as many believe we are at the point of diminishing returns now for sensor tech unless you are printing very large.    I haven't tried 10-R but am curious to do so now

In the meantime an hour side by side with 10 and 11 really gave me a reality check for the type of images I need/like to make 

 

 

 

I have to say that you’re absolutely right.. M10 colors are much more beautiful and the white balance is much more reliable than the M11 .. if you ask me M10P is more than enough and with its silent shutter it is much more usable than the M11.. I am saying all these as a current owner of M11 and a past user of M10P ..

[algrove]

I find it just as easy to get the look I want with an M11 as I used to get with my M10R.

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, MyLeicaWorld said:

I have to say that you’re absolutely right.. M10 colors are much more beautiful and the white balance is much more reliable than the M11 .. if you ask me M10P is more than enough and with its silent shutter it is much more usable than the M11.. I am saying all these as a current owner of M11 and a past user of M10P ..

I was quite surprised looking at side by sides (shot with the same lens that I have 2 copies of). The rendering was significantly different. Of course some may prefer the 11 for their purposes but for myself it was a real eye opener that the most important thing is the end result and it’s really important to try these cameras (not always possible) before succumbing to GAS !

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, setuporg said:

I’ve been on the fence since M11 launch and now am a happy camper with the M11P that I had since its own launch.  Waiting for FOTOS + CAI issue to be fixed but without an app it is a solid and fantastic camera.  Really enjoying it, worth the wait.  The battery lasts for 800 shots or so, and with 4 batteries I could do a longish trip without charging.  The 256GB internal storage is good for a few days.  The black one is a joy to hold and carry.  The stapling shutter sound became very satisfying after a while, on par with the silent shutter in M10R/M.  Recommended!

try updating the fotos app. i has some fixes today

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[Stevejack]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

I was quite surprised looking at side by sides (shot with the same lens that I have 2 copies of). The rendering was significantly different. Of course some may prefer the 11 for their purposes but for myself it was a real eye opener that the most important thing is the end result and it’s really important to try these cameras (not always possible) before succumbing to GAS !

Just curious were you comparing Jpegs straight out of camera or the Raw files converted in something like Lightroom / capture one?