Anyone go back to the M10-R from the M11?

[yanidel]

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Happy with my M10. This race to have  bigger files with each generation bugs me. For street photography, 24mpx is more than enough. For me Leica should focus on improving the viewfinder (a single frameline at a time and more info about exposure for example) instead of secondary features that really don't change anything to the shooting experience. Swapping a battery or SD  card a day is really not a big deal, ask all these film shooters. 

[Edgar1920]

Am 11.12.2023 um 00:08 schrieb Crem:

I doubt I would be willing to spend on a BP M11. I'm so happy with the M10-R & M10-D that I can't imagine selling one or both of them to go back to the M11. Long term who knows. At some point the two bodies I have will get old and I'll want to upgrade to something. I imagine someday (M12?) the Leica engineers will figure out how to make reliable firmware and then I'll consider it. In the last year I've been bit by Leica's quality control issues twice: M11 firmware bugs & Steel Rim remake flaws. I think I'm taking a break from being a beta tester and the M11 still has that beta feeling after being around for nearly two years.

Ah you were a beta tester too, paying alpha prices? The quality of new Leica products is … less than 20%. of my new purchases during the last 3 years did not have to go back to CS for rework. I’m exhausted and decided not to buy anything new for the next years because it causes so many hours, analyzing the issues, writing to Leica, send back items. And then months of unavailability of my gear. The 3 year warranty (if you register your new product) at the end comes down to 2.5 years of availability of the camera or lens. 
My 2 M10 (1xP and 1xR) bodies went back for 1x sensor replacement and 1x rangefinder repair. 3 new lenses went back for 1x lens shade issue (the accessory holder was not machined as ist should be in the lens., 1x focusing issues (lens. Was focusing wrong all over the distance range) and 1x the optical unit unit getting loose after 1 year. Only my Steel rim reduction did not return “home” (but I only have it for a few more than one year). 
I understand now why CS is always overloaded. It they have to refurbish 80% of new produced gear it’s simply impossible.

I hope (but doubt) that Leica will get to a point where the manufactures quality is close to the advertising promise.

Until then I’ll buy second hand and check well before purchasing.

Photo Passion … there is a very negative notion of passion in my mother tongue: Leidenschaft = generating sorrow).

 

[FrankF]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:46 AM, muskyvibes said:

Someone just contacted me on my IG curious if I would sell him/trade my Leica M10R BP for his M11. 

Obviously I said not in a million years, but it was interesting to see someone wanting to make the move to the M10R from the M11. 

I didn’t ask him why he wants to trade his M11 for an M10R. Not happy I guess. 

Sometimes, especially with the Leica M, less is definitely more. 

Or, you just avoided a big fat expensive scam.... In fact, I will make you the same offer... My M11 for your M10.  Send me yours on Feb 1, I will do the same.

Oh, and no, I do not own a M11, I just want your M10 for free.....

 

[Stevejack]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:14 AM, yanidel said:

For me Leica should focus on improving the viewfinder (a single frameline at a time and more info about exposure for example) instead of secondary features that really don't change anything to the shooting experience. Swapping a battery or SD  card a day is really not a big deal, ask all these film shooters. 

I wish they would bring back their custom options to allow for modifications like this with the digital cameras. I sometimes use a 5cm external OVF with a 50mm just to avoid the extra 75mm frame lines in the viewfinder... they really bug me more than they should.

I also can't stand grids or levels or anything in the EVF. It's nice to have the option there for some use cases, but being able to turn it all off and just have an unobstructed view is a massive benefit and sometimes I prefer using the Visoflex over the viewfinder just for this reason. 

 

[DrM]

Interesting read on the perception of motion blur: https://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

Based on the pixel pitch and resolution differences you can estimate the increase of ~0.58 stop to compensate for the increased blur, keeping the shooting conditions the same. This "feels" like an okish estimation in practise and for me this is not a problem.

[Henners]

I had an M10-R and then went to the M11, I don't regret it but I also miss the M10-R and I'm not sure which is the 'better' camera. I look at the photos from the M10-R and for some reason they just seem to have a bit more character and I just like the look more. I might just be imagining it though or maybe I processed them slightly differently. I also preferred the handling of the M10-R slightly, it just seemed more straight-forward and I felt more 'at one' with it. This is all very minor though, I've kept the M11 because I love the battery life and USB-C to charge it along with a few little other things but if I had the M10-R I wouldn't be in any hurry to get the M11 again. I also find the M11 freezes on me and loses the photos just before it freezes which I never had on the M10-R. It doesn't happen that often but it's enough to be a worry.

[tom0511]

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I have used a M10r and M11 side by side as a beta tester and was torn to upgrade or not.

Where I preferred the M10r:

-shutter sound

-slightly less prurple fringing and better corner performance with some lenses

- a certain little bit of extra pop to the images

Where I prefer the M11:

- lighter weight

- bigger image in the EVF (which I use for UWA and 75mm)

- better battery, faster to change

- +++ better exposure metering (big improvement for me in contrasty daylight/ landscape)

- USB-C charging and image transfer

- internal memory

- sensor (even though M10r was more than fine for me)

Both are fine cameras , but I would nt go back - most useful difference for me is the exposure metering and USB-C interface.

 

[Alberti]

Quote

- a certain little bit of extra pop to the images

That is an interesting find. It took me quit some time to find that 'pop' in the M10r and be able to go for it. I see it as: the natural character of the lens is conveyed, with flaws, what can be nice compositionally. Like the slight soft coma that often appears in the last half stop. I first thought it was un-secure focussing. [No possible comparison. Not having an M11.]

[tom0511]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

Very interesting find. Would you - for academic sake and future potential buyers - be so kind and post the “extra pop” of the M10-R compared to M11? The community would be grateful.

Sorry, I can only report my overall impression from having owned M10r for some time, comparing it during betatest to M11, and now owning M11.

I dont own a M10r anymore, plus I know what happens, if you post comparisons (people tell you 100 reasons why the comparison is not schientific and should be done in a different way), 

I have to add my experience bases mainly of LR-conversion - could very well also have to do with profiles or the converter. Some say C1 is prefered for Leica.

 

 

[RexGig0]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:42 AM, tom0511 said:

I have used a M10r and M11 side by side as a beta tester and was torn to upgrade or not.

Where I preferred the M10r:

-shutter sound

-slightly less prurple fringing and better corner performance with some lenses

- a certain little bit of extra pop to the images

Where I prefer the M11:

- lighter weight

- bigger image in the EVF (which I use for UWA and 75mm)

- better battery, faster to change

- +++ better exposure metering (big improvement for me in contrasty daylight/ landscape)

- USB-C charging and image transfer

- internal memory

- sensor (even though M10r was more than fine for me)

Both are fine cameras , but I would nt go back - most useful difference for me is the exposure metering and USB-C interface.

 

This is useful information. Thanks.

This reinforces my tentative conclusion that I would derive tangible benefit from an M11 if/when I am going to shoot serious landscape images with an M camera, largely because of the M11’s different exposure metering, compared to previous M cameras. The M11’s light weight, and the relative compactness of M lenses, would be helpful when climbing steep terrain. The larger battery would be helpful, when cold weather diminishes the vitality of all batteries. The USB-C charging would be helpful in reducing the need to carry the extra weight of spare Leica batteries, in situations where a general-purpose or alternate power supply is available. Landscape shooting is the one situation in which I am most likely to want the highest resolution.

At present, I am not a truly serious landscape shooter, who travels to remote areas, climbing steep terrain, to capture epic landscape images. My current “best” landscape lenses tend to be made to fit SLR systems. I have 46MP and 50MP DSLRs, whereas my M cameras are 24MP. My truly deep pleasure, when shooting with M cameras, does not mean that I feel compelled to part with my SLR/DSLR equipment. My DSLRs do not eat much, so, are not causing financial hardship. I would net very little, by selling them.

I do have M lenses which would be expected to perform “better” on an M11, for color images, because of its BSI sensor. (I presently use these lenses on Monochrom cameras, which are unaffected by color shift.)

The overall quietness of the shutter, in the M10-P and M10-R, compared to my original M10, or the M11, are keeping the M10-R (and M10-P) higher on my list, than the M11.

I am not a “professional photographer,” with a duty to produce images for any person, other than myself. (Sometimes, family and friends do “expect” much, because they know I was a forensic/evidentiary/crime scene photography, when I was a police officer, so, I “must know everything” about photography.)

I may, indeed, have a rock inside my head, rather than a brain, but on the matter of M10-R versus M11, nothing is written in stone. 😉

 

Edited February 14, 2024 by RexGig0

[GFONG]

22 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

This reinforces my tentative conclusion that I would derive tangible benefit from an M11 if/when I am going to shoot serious landscape images with an M camera, largely because of the M11’s different exposure metering, compared to previous M cameras.

 

From what I know, the exposure metering is the same but the handling of exposure metering is different.

[tom0511]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb GFONG:

From what I know, the exposure metering is the same but the handling of exposure metering is different.

With the M10/M10R you get the "advanced" exposure metering only in life-view mode, and life-view will lead to a slightly longer shutter delay.

With the M11 you get it all the time without a longer shutter delay. I am not sure if the highlight weighted metering made it into the M10/M10r via firmware?

 

[charlesphoto99]

Sorry, but I don't get this better exposure metering with the M11. Just learn to expose and they'll be the same. Learn the zone system using the manual red arrows in the viewfinder. Important for tricky light whether it be an M3 or M11 - the camera can only guess so much. And if shooting landscapes, unless it's moving rapidly, then chimp until one gets the exposure just right. Now if the M11 has better dynamic range that is a different thing and can help in cases of under and over exposure or in extreme light. 

[jakontil]

I have been shooting and exposing with M for ages and when i used M11, i sticked with center weighted metering just as if i was shooting with my M6TTL and other M

i was glad there’s still center weighted metering in M11 which was now sold 

[otto.f]

On 12/14/2023 at 12:06 PM, newtoleica said:

Agree, I think the M11 will be seen as another mis-step like the M240.... controversial I know....

Although a misstep in a totally other direction

[otto.f]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:14 PM, yanidel said:

Leica should focus on….

And get rid of the Sony sensors, or at least work on producing true colors. The M11 is a way of joining the gadgets race in all sort of functions which make the menu unpractical and forgetting the core business of Leica which is enhancement of image quality. This is still necessary and possible since the CCD sensors were abandoned.  In fact, with the M11 Leica betrayed their own motto of concentrating on the essential. 

Edited February 23, 2024 by otto.f

[tom0511]

Am 17.2.2024 um 15:37 schrieb charlesphoto99:

Sorry, but I don't get this better exposure metering with the M11. Just learn to expose and they'll be the same. Learn the zone system using the manual red arrows in the viewfinder. Important for tricky light whether it be an M3 or M11 - the camera can only guess so much. And if shooting landscapes, unless it's moving rapidly, then chimp until one gets the exposure just right. Now if the M11 has better dynamic range that is a different thing and can help in cases of under and over exposure or in extreme light. 

All I can tell you is that for the 20 years using M6 until M10r I had to repeat  images in tricky light more often to get the right exposure than I have to with the M11. For certain things center weighted metering is just not the best and fastest method. Of course one can live with it. I was fine with my previous M cameras, but the M11 is just a little bit better for me. Specially in situations, where you want to "catch the moment", and isn't this also one thing the Leica M is known for?

It is also very helpful for the M11Mono, where  recovery of highlights is more difficult.

With older Ms I more often dialed in - .7 exp comp just to not overexpose. Works as well.

But what works better for me doesn't have to work better for others.

Edited February 23, 2024 by tom0511

[tom0511]

controversial, yes. good we all have the choice.

Some want the totally puristic thing.  I even wouldn't mind IBIS and movie mode. IMO the simplicity would not get lost.

I also don't miss the bottom plate, which you have to put somewhere when changing the battery. But I also understand people who say its part of the M DNA.

 

Edited February 23, 2024 by tom0511

[chris_tribble]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:39 PM, petereprice said:

Can you describe some of the reasons why?

Sorry I didn’t spot this…

it was mainly the shutter - which is clearly linked to the “feature” of metering off the sensor.  I’ve had decades of us with metered M cameras, from M6 TTL through to M10, and metering has never been a problem for me, so what felt like a lack responsiveness wasn’t compensated for by any improvement in functionality. I also hated the kerchunk!

I also wasn’t persuaded by the bigger file size and the change of battery / camera base was an annoyance. IQ improvements are there, but marginal for me, and the overall package felt like something interim.  The M10-R (or the M10-P) are a wonderful pinnacle of a design process IMHO.  Who know if I’ll be tempted to drop another serious chunk of cash in the future. At the moment I have 3 great cameras that meet all my needs (really!). I use the M with mostly Summicron 28 & 35 plus a close focus 50 Summilux and Zeiss 85 (great travel Len’s paired with semi wide).  The L2s are mainly for event / performance / portrait commissions. Mostly with 24-90 + 90-280, but also with APO 35 & 75. I really don’t feel I need anything els for available light work - and clients are still happy!

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Hallo,

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[Simon644]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:37 AM, Winedemonium said:

This was the main reason that I bought the M10-R (BP) after the M11 was announced. There are plenty of reasons why the M11 is superior (and let's see what tweaks the M11P adds). But for me personally the M is a particular kind of experience, and the well-damped sounding mechanical shutter of the M10R (and M10P) is a positive part of the experience. I’ve had an M10 for a while now after the 240 and love the feel of the shutter on the 11p, am I missing something? Also prefer the viso flex, shoot slot open.

Edited October 12, 2024 by Simon644
May have done something wrong here sorry, old got and not very techy.