Anyone go back to the M10-R from the M11?

[petereprice]

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Hi all - I'm fairly new to this forum, but have been a Leica shooter for a few years.  I just recently upgraded to the Leica M11, and have a bunch of mixed feelings about the upgrade and now considering going back to the M10-R.

Things I like about the M11:

1.  The weight!  I love how it's 25% lighter than my M10-R and I feel like it makes a difference!
2.  The battery!  I like the extended life I get out of the new battery.  It's been awesome!
3.  New camera bottom!  I like the new bottom plate or lack of bottom plate design.  I'm an avid film M user, but I never really cared for the digital bodies having a similar plate, so this is a welcomed addition ( I know... blasphemy!)
4.  Internal Storage!  I didn't think this would matter but it totally does, and it's so great that I can utilize the faster internal storage and then offload images to the SD car, or actually do redundant backups on an M body.  Feels very professional!
5.  Tri Resolution Sensor!  Love the flexibility to shoot at different resolutions.  
6.  Finish.  I actually like the matte finish of the black Leica M11.  It's nice and seems very tough and scratch resistant.

Things I don't like about the M11:

1.  AWB is off compared to my previous Leica M bodies.
2.  AWB gets even more weird depending on what metering I use.  For instance I see more inaccurate WB when using Multi vs Highlight.  I know, I can switch to manual, but thought I'd point it out for comparison sake.
3.  Colors out of camera.  With my M11 and even M10, I feel like Adobe's out of camera RAW profile made it really easy to edit right away.  I often didn't need to do much and if I did, I could get to where I want quickly.  With the M11, I feel very similarly to how I felt with early Sony bodies.  I can get to a place that works, but it takes me a lot longer.  I try to spend less time in the digital dark room, so this is a bit of a bummer
4.  There are certain sensitivities when introducing a high resolution sensor like a 60mp.  For instance having to crank shutter as high as possible to avoid any camera shake blur, is a real thing.  Typically I have to be in that 1/500 range to ensure really sharp pictures.  I probably can go down to 1/250th, but typically I stay above that.  But its challenging in certain circumstances
5.  I know this will probably spur a little debate, but find shadow recovery to be much easier on the M10-R than the M11.  I can see dynamic range advantages such as high light recovery on the M11 sensor, but I find the shadow recovery on the M10-R to be a lot cleaner
6.  Focus on a high resolution sensor can also be a thing too.  As a fairly newish Leica M user ( about 3 years) I always strive to be better at focusing.  I know with practice it gets better, but I have to say that the M11 is very unforgiving compared to my previous experience with M bodies.  My focus has to be absolutely spot on, or any deviation in focus shows up in the image.  Also very challenging.
7.  Magenta cast on the images.  I know this has been discussed, and it's easy to get rid of in post, but I do have to call it out that I don't like it.  But to everyone's point it is fairly easy to get rid of in WB in Lightroom.
8.  The shutter mechanism feels a bit of a step back.  The M10-P and M10-R introduced really elegant shutter dampening, and it doesn't feel as dampened on the M11.  Making it slight noisier.

So far I have not experienced any major freezing.  The camera has been for the most part solid and fast.  From an exterior perspective, I like this camera whole lot better than the M10-R, but from an image editing perspective, I feel like I've introduced new challenges to my workflow, which I find discouraging for a very expensive camera.  Maybe I'm too new of an M user and need to practice my chops more, in order to be better on this camera.  Maybe I'm used to the colors of the M10-R and it's simply what I'm used to therefor I like?

Would be curious if anyone went on a similar journey going Leica M11 or back to M10-R?  Would appreciate any thoughts or wisdom.  Thanks!

[jakontil]

from what I read, you enjoy shooting more with the M11, stay with M11 and find a better workflow with your editing that makes you feel comfortable with

I have both and use sparingly without problem as I found both cameras give me almost the same results and experience, except the M11 that has better battery life and usb c port for easy charging 

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[rpsawin]

The M10-R is more than enough to meet my needs when shooting color. I also have a M10-M for my B&W work and having interchangeable accessories is very convenient. I have no experience with the M11 and don't expect to in the future.

[irenedp]

In my case after all I have read about the M11, I would not consider switching to one. I use, among other cameras, an M10r and an S3, and another with even higher resolution. The S3 works fine above 1/125th with the 70. The M10r can go a little lower. 

I believe Leica should have considered to stabilise the camera when putting a larger sensor. The thing is that the sensor does not occupy more space than the previous 40 MP one, but the stabilizer is something they probably can't allow themselves in terms of space.

In the end it is a matter of compensating the higher shutter speeds with higher ISOs.

[darlesch]

I switched to the M10-R from the M11. 

Feel free to PM me to discuss.

[thrid]

I just upgraded from the M10 to an M11.

My main concern about the M11 is the new shutter cycle.

The familiar and reassuring SNICK! has been replaced with a series of mechanical thuds that leave you guessing, when exactly the picture was taken.
I think a lot of it is psychological and I have to keep telling myself that most of that ruckus is occurring after the actual exposure.

BUT if shutter lag on the M11 turns out to be a serious problem for me I will probably pick up an M10-R. Heck for the cost of an M11 I could almost get two M10-R 

Leica could add a closed-open-closed shutter cycle to the M11 and put AE-L on the function button, but we would probably see hell freeze over before they do something like that.
Ultimately I expect the M11 shutter cycle conundrum to be solved with the M12, which probably will have no mechanical shutter and instead rely on a global sensor shutter.

But given the high IQ of the M10-R and attractive price it still is a very nice option

Edited October 20, 2023 by thrid

[lucy63]

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I had both and far prefer the rendering from the 11. M10-R metering isn't great and makes shooting harder work, skin tones are off and I found the files to look less organic than any other digital M I've used, which is all of them. 

[Winedemonium]

19 hours ago, thrid said:

My main concern about the M11 is the new shutter cycle.

The familiar and reassuring SNICK! has been replaced with a series of mechanical thuds that leave you guessing, when exactly the picture was taken.
I think a lot of it is psychological and I have to keep telling myself that most of that ruckus is occurring after the actual exposure.

This was the main reason that I bought the M10-R (BP) after the M11 was announced. There are plenty of reasons why the M11 is superior (and let's see what tweaks the M11P adds). But for me personally the M is a particular kind of experience, and the well-damped sounding mechanical shutter of the M10R (and M10P) is a positive part of the experience.

[SNJ Ops]

Does shooting the M11 at 18mp or 36mp make it more forgiving in the shutter speed department? 

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I prefere nearly in any case my M 10-R plus APO-Summicron 35 mm. If needed there ist my S3 or Q2.

[chris_tribble]

I was involved in testing the M11 and decided to get an M10-R. I prefer it.

[petereprice]

4 hours ago, chris_tribble said:

I was involved in testing the M11 and decided to get an M10-R. I prefer it.

Can you describe some of the reasons why?

[ELAN]

I reverted to the M10-R after a year of using the M11 daily.  I prefer the colors and shutter experience of the M10-R.

[RexGig0]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:06 AM, SNJ Ops said:

Does shooting the M11 at 18mp or 36mp make it more forgiving in the shutter speed department? 

I, too, am interested in this question. Thanks for posting it.

Based up shooting with a ~50MP Canon 5Ds R and a ~47MP Nikon D850,  I know that I have aged to the point of having to use quite fast shutter speeds, when shooting high-resolution cameras.

Edited November 8, 2023 by RexGig0

[petereprice]

3 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

I, too, am interested in this question. Thanks for posting it.

Based up shooting with a ~50MP Canon 5Ds R and a ~47MP Nikon D850,  I know that I have aged to the point of having to use quite fast shutter speeds, when shooting high-resolution cameras.

In my experience shooting in the lower resolutions doesn't appear to have an affect on camera shake.

[RexGig0]

6 hours ago, petereprice said:

In my experience shooting in the lower resolutions doesn't appear to have an affect on camera shake.

Thanks!

[Snipe10]

I want one as I'm a bit nervous about the M11 being so new, like me, ha

[Crem]

After using the M11 for a year I finally went back to the M10-R. More like I sold the M11 and kept my old M10-R. For a number of reasons I prefer the M10-R (shutter, weight, bottom plate, traditional metering, colors, lower resolution, and simpler firmware). The M11 is a great camera, but it felt like a constant beta test due to lockups and firmware bugs.

[bernstein1234]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:12 AM, Crem said:

After using the M11 for a year I finally went back to the M10-R. More like I sold the M11 and kept my old M10-R. For a number of reasons I prefer the M10-R (shutter, weight, bottom plate, traditional metering, colors, lower resolution, and simpler firmware). The M11 is a great camera, but it felt like a constant beta test due to lockups and firmware bugs.

Same here as your reasons. Furthermore I can't get used to the grippy-sandpaper feeling of the entire body (although I can get the silver chrome version to avoid this but I just like black more). I also find that end of the day, M11/M11-P feels like a toy; M10-R is more of a real camera 😅 Last reason is the M10-R had a Black Paint variant, I could resist and got one.

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[Crem]

5 hours ago, bernstein1234 said:

Same here as your reasons. Furthermore I can't get used to the grippy-sandpaper feeling of the entire body (although I can get the silver chrome version to avoid this but I just like black more). I also find that end of the day, M11/M11-P feels like a toy; M10-R is more of a real camera 😅 Last reason is the M10-R had a Black Paint variant, I could resist and got one.

Congrats on getting a black paint M10-R! I regret not ordering one when those were available. I'll be curious to see if they ever make a M11 black paint considering the top plate is aluminum. I assume they will have to make brass top plates if they do.

The M11 definitely feels a bit more toy like for sure due to the decreased weight. When I originally got the black M11 I really liked the lower weight, but over time I kept gravitating back to the M10-R. The M10 bodies (with extra weight) feels a bit more stable with heavy lenses and slow shutter speeds.