M11-S?

[Nitnaros]

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On 9/25/2023 at 5:38 PM, newtoleica said:

Trust me. I've tried an M11 in a Leica store. Completely different sound. its not just the volume but the 'click' v 'cliikkphhhclick' I found it very irritating. It's similar but a bit higher pitch to the M10-P on LV mode. Even IF subjects didn't hear it, it disturbed my 'mental focus'. electronic shutter - yep useless for street. The M10-P is a perfect tool for street photography. Quiet, discrete, absorbing of concentration. Very Zen.

 

I had read so much here about the noises the M11 shutter makes (I shoot an M10-P too).

tried and bought the M11 - I have no issues with how it’s shutter sounds

so this is all very personal & subjective 

 

 

 

 

 

[algrove]

If Leica ever introduced a 24MP sensor in an M11 body using non-LV metering then the low light performance could rival the SL2S low light performance without the video getting into the mix. That could be awesome.

[Makage]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure what all that has to do with the concept above.  I didn’t watch the video, as I have zero interest in Sonys, and the whole Sony A7 with M lenses issue was done years ago.  I had an A7r when it came out, and it was soon very clear that the Sony only played nice(ish) with telecentric lenses; any Leica lens with a sniff of wide to it had smeary edges on the Sony, particularly at infinity.

Yes that’s what he found. The edges aren’t very good on the Sony when you adapt Leica lenses. They perform better on the Leica version of the sensors. But this is lens performance. The images are basically identical bar the optical issues in the corners when adapting the Leica lens.

[Makage]

2 hours ago, algrove said:

If Leica ever introduced a 24MP sensor in an M11 body using non-LV metering then the low light performance could rival the SL2S low light performance without the video getting into the mix. That could be awesome.

This will never happen. Leica uses the 60MP Sony sensor and that sensor gives you 3 resolutions already. This will continue to the 100MP sensor. Nothing will go backwards anymore. Ever. From now on it’ll be MORE not less. 

4 hours ago, Nitnaros said:

I had read so much here about the noises the M11 shutter makes (I shoot an M10-P too).

tried and bought the M11 - I have no issues with how it’s shutter sounds

so this is all very personal & subjective 

The nicest shutter sound is the Leica M2/3. 

[algrove]

Even with the SL 47MP sensor Leica came out after it with a new 24MP BSI sensor in the SL2S. To me that is going backwards and I love it.

[IkarusJohn]

25 minutes ago, Makage said:

Yes that’s what he found. The edges aren’t very good on the Sony when you adapt Leica lenses. They perform better on the Leica version of the sensors. But this is lens performance. The images are basically identical bar the optical issues in the corners when adapting the Leica lens.

Not really.  The Leica sensors are specifically designed to deal with the shallow incidence at the edges arising from the register distance of the M lenses.  Leica has sourced sensors from a number of fabricators over the years to deal with the specifics of the M design.  While the base sensor chip may be identical (we don’t actually know as Leica doesn’t disclose its sensor fabricators), all sensors in digital M cameras are specific to the M camera to deal with the M mount.

[frankchn]

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4 hours ago, algrove said:

If Leica ever introduced a 24MP sensor in an M11 body using non-LV metering then the low light performance could rival the SL2S low light performance without the video getting into the mix. That could be awesome.

I don’t think the LV metering system will result in worse (or better, for that matter) low-light performance. Anyway, according to Photons-to-Photos, when normalized to the same output size, the M11 is better than the SL2S at low ISOs, and at most a third-stop worse at high ISOs. The M11 sensor is also better than the SL2 sensor at all ISOs.

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not really.  The Leica sensors are specifically designed to deal with the shallow incidence at the edges arising from the register distance of the M lenses.  Leica has sourced sensors from a number of fabricators over the years to deal with the specifics of the M design.  While the base sensor chip may be identical (we don’t actually know as Leica doesn’t disclose its sensor fabricators), all sensors in digital M cameras are specific to the M camera to deal with the M mount.

It would be a thinner cover glass, an offset micro lens array, and software color-cast correction that is different. The electronics on the sensor should be the same.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, frankchn said:

It would be a thinner cover glass, an offset micro lens array, and software color-cast correction that is different. The electronics on the sensor should be the same.

Hi Frank, the sensor designs have been discussed many times over in the forum - the M8, M9, M(240), M10 and M11 sensors were all made by various fabricators specifically to Leica's design.  Sure, the underlying chip will have been used for other cameras, but the sensor as a whole (ie, chip and cover glass) is specific to Leica as it is the only chip (along with the SL sensors) compatible with M lenses; and, not forgetting that Leica cooks the raw file to its own requirements.  Leica is usually reticent about who makes its sensors.

I have no idea what this has to do with this thread, or why Sony's cameras are relevant.  Leica has no monopoly on producing fabulous pictures (scroll through much of the image forum and you will see that is the case).  The issue is encouraging Leica to produce an upgraded version of the M10, with much of what the M11 offers, but retaining the simplicity of the M10.

Now, many have said Leica won't; Leica can't; no one will make sensors etc etc.  My opinion, and that of many here, is cobblers to that.  They've done that and much else in the past.  The trick will be sourcing a BSI sensor of 36MP, and getting it made with Leica's M cover glass - anything can be done for a price ...  Actually, I don't give a toss about MP, though I'm pretty sure 60MP or 100MP in an M without IBIS is  not a great idea.

Meanwhile, my X2D has a 100MP BSI sensor, with IBIS and very good colour science.  I don't promise to take better pictures, but I certainly won't be buying the M11 or the M11-M or the M11-P if it's just an upgrade of the M11.  But, that's just me.

Edited September 28, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[dpitt]

10 hours ago, Makage said:

My comment comes from seeing a folder of A7RIV files and M11 files (all raw) opening them myself and comparing them. I’m just talking about the M. 

I don’t know who makes the LUMIX S sensor. They’ve said before (for the GH6 at least) that it isn’t Sony. But I’m not sure what’s inside the S. Haven’t seen anything to confirm it. 

What I do know is the A7RIV and the M11 have the same sensor and looking at their RAW files side by side they’re nearly identical (both shot with the 50 Summilux). 

This video has a link to all the raw files used. Just reset them when you open them. You really have to pull out a microscope to see a difference. 

Watch the video and try to guess just looking at those files is the Leica A or B. 

As he says the main difference is the M lenses work better (their IQ from wide open) on the Leica where the corners wide open sort of fall apart on the Sony sensor. 

Im not saying Leica doesn’t alter the sensor. They do. I’m just saying the resulting images are basically identical besides the lenses performing better on the Leica. 
 

Other tests say the Leica M11 really pulled it off because the Sensor is more “accurate” and provides more accurate colors than the M10R or the M10P. But providing accurate colors was never the aim. Just like the aim of Kodachrome wasn’t ro give accurate colors. It had a certain “look” different from Kodak gold or Ektachrome. They’re not giving you “accurate colors”. 

The “look” is gone in favor of a more generic “accurate” look. It’s bound to happen when they all get the same sensor. Everything just starts blending together.  

Thank you for backing up your words with an excellent test and video. I took the time to watch your video before this reply. I was just speaking in general with the Lumix S1, S5 and Leica SL series as an example. So I am not sure who built the sensor of those camera's. Panasonic and Leica have shared a lot of electronics in the past and some models were almost exact copies. So my bet is that the manufacturer of the sensor is the same. But there were always small differences, even if it was in the selection of the components and firmware only. This could be noticed in the results.

I think you did a good job with your A and B set of images to balance everything out exactly the same. It is quite close, but there are subtle differences. I do not own a M11, nor a Sony. So I downloaded the RAW files (thanks) and compared them. I must say that out of camera the differences are not subtle at all. The 3D effect of the M11 is much more pronounced and the colors are almost exactly as I like them. The M11 seems more 'alive' where the Sony feels more sterile out of the box. Some of this can be fixed with some careful PP of course, but not all of it. It is the 3D effect differences in your A and B images that catches my eye. It is even more outspoken out of the box. (e.g. the Yoda images) YMMV

Suppose you would make a gallery of the best images. Showing only the A or the B of each, mixing the Sony and M11 shots.
Maybe I would not be able to tell if the images were shot by the Leica or the Sony, but chances are that my favorites would be mostly Leica shots.

A camera system is much more than the sensor, so even if the M11 was not on top in this test, I still had to choose the M11 because of the RF in the first place. The RF allows me to see and frame shots in a different way. So I get results that I would not even see with an other camera system. Controls, size and weight, matching with my set of M lenses are other important factors. Not sure about the menu and other differences, but I think the Leica would have more appeal to me.

To return to the OP. I hope that Leica keeps the essence of the M i.e. the form factor, controls and most importantly the RF in all of their future releases. Sufficient quality of the results needs to be there, but I am sure that will be of no concern. Everything else is a bonus.

[mahimihi]

3 hours ago, dpitt said:

Thank you for backing up your words with an excellent test and video. I took the time to watch your video before this reply. I was just speaking in general with the Lumix S1, S5 and Leica SL series as an example. So I am not sure who built the sensor of those camera's. Panasonic and Leica have shared a lot of electronics in the past and some models were almost exact copies. So my bet is that the manufacturer of the sensor is the same. But there were always small differences, even if it was in the selection of the components and firmware only. This could be noticed in the results.

I think you did a good job with your A and B set of images to balance everything out exactly the same. It is quite close, but there are subtle differences. I do not own a M11, nor a Sony. So I downloaded the RAW files (thanks) and compared them. I must say that out of camera the differences are not subtle at all. The 3D effect of the M11 is much more pronounced and the colors are almost exactly as I like them. The M11 seems more 'alive' where the Sony feels more sterile out of the box. Some of this can be fixed with some careful PP of course, but not all of it. It is the 3D effect differences in your A and B images that catches my eye. It is even more outspoken out of the box. (e.g. the Yoda images) YMMV

Suppose you would make a gallery of the best images. Showing only the A or the B of each, mixing the Sony and M11 shots.
Maybe I would not be able to tell if the images were shot by the Leica or the Sony, but chances are that my favorites would be mostly Leica shots.

A camera system is much more than the sensor, so even if the M11 was not on top in this test, I still had to choose the M11 because of the RF in the first place. The RF allows me to see and frame shots in a different way. So I get results that I would not even see with an other camera system. Controls, size and weight, matching with my set of M lenses are other important factors. Not sure about the menu and other differences, but I think the Leica would have more appeal to me.

To return to the OP. I hope that Leica keeps the essence of the M i.e. the form factor, controls and most importantly the RF in all of their future releases. Sufficient quality of the results needs to be there, but I am sure that will be of no concern. Everything else is a bonus.

I’ve seen this video. In fact the files are almost if not exactly identical. It’s just the Leica raw files are already edited when you open them so you have to reset all changes. That’s why you’re seeing a difference. 

[dpitt]

3 hours ago, mahimihi said:

I’ve seen this video. In fact the files are almost if not exactly identical. It’s just the Leica raw files are already edited when you open them so you have to reset all changes. That’s why you’re seeing a difference. 

I double checked the files. When opened in my C1P v23, I can not see any changes on both of them. The reset changes button is disabled because Capture One does not detect changes. Maybe the results in LR are different.

As a matter of fact, I would not know a way to make them the same in PP. YMMV

Edited September 28, 2023 by dpitt

[costa43]

The ultimate M11-s for me would be

Centre weighted metering off the shutter, almost instant wake time, low mp (no more than 24), internal memory, decent battery, minimal menus and distractions and the ultimate would be closer focusing rangefinder (0.4mp would be lovely if ever poss)

 

[thrid]

Maybe the answer isn't a low cost M11.

I'm just not sure how you would drive the price down.

There's not a lot of fat on the M11 and simply going to a cheaper sensor is not going to move the needle by a few thousand dollars. I would also say that labor and production costs are the main reason why the M11 is $9000. Germany is not a cheap place to manufacture anything.

So, maybe the answer is an APS-C Leica CL... call it a Leica CL-D or CD

• M-mount
• 24 or 36MP APS-C sensor. Prioritize dynamic range over resolution.
• Shutter and some electronics from M11 or maybe one of their other cameras.
• Battery from M10? That would be nice if you already own an M10 / M10-R
• Simplified rangefinder? 
• Assembled in Portugal
• Parts made in Portugal or somewhere else that is cheaper than Germany.
• Stamped brass top plate instead of CNC machining? Cast magnesium like on the M6?
• I still believe that weather sealing is important, because it is an electronic device after all.

Fuji, Nikon, Cannon etc could never get away with selling a $3500-$4999 APS-C camera. But Leica could.... 

It would be the most expensive APS-C camera of all time, but that's half the cost of an M11.

They could even make some 'cheaper' APS-C specific lenses

Edited October 10, 2023 by thrid

[T25UFO]

1 hour ago, thrid said:

Maybe the answer isn't a low cost M11.

I'm just not sure how you would drive the price down.

There's not a lot of fat on the M11 and simply going to a cheaper sensor is not going to move the needle by a few thousand dollars. I would also say that labor and production costs are the main reason why the M11 is $9000. Germany is not a cheap place to manufacture anything.

So, maybe the answer is an APS-C Leica CL... call it a Leica CL-D or CD

• M-mount
• 24 or 36MP APS-C sensor. Prioritize dynamic range over resolution.
• Shutter and some electronics from M11 or maybe one of their other cameras.
• Battery from M10? That would be nice if you already own an M10 / M10-R
• Simplified rangefinder? 
• Assembled in Portugal
• Parts made in Portugal or somewhere else that is cheaper than Germany.
• Stamped brass top plate instead of CNC machining? Cast magnesium like on the M6?
• I still believe that weather sealing is important, because it is an electronic device after all.

Fuji, Nikon, Cannon etc could never get away with selling a $3500-$4999 APS-C camera. But Leica could.... 

It would be the most expensive APS-C camera of all time, but that's half the cost of an M11.

They could even make some 'cheaper' APS-C specific lenses

APS-C?  Nice idea but never going back . . . anyway, Leica doesn’t do cheap!

[thrid]

48 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

APS-C?  Nice idea but never going back . . . anyway, Leica doesn’t do cheap!

I think the real answer is that Leica has no interest in making a lower cost M. In the past their answer has been 'buy a used one'.

 

[evikne]

22 minutes ago, thrid said:

I think the real answer is that Leica has no interest in making a lower cost M. In the past their answer has been 'buy a used one'.

That's also the answer we get when we ask for lenses that are small and light, like in the old days. 

[Kwesi]

2 hours ago, costa43 said:

Centre weighted metering off the shutter

You are not going to see that in an M11 platform camera - no matter how low the price. 

1 - it will cost more than its worth to retool for some low cost one off run.

2 - Leica M's have moved on from off the shutter metering.

[thrid]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

That's also the answer we get when we ask for lenses that are small and light, like in the old days. 

Don't worry. Eventually they will reissue the old designs for an arm and a leg.

🙂

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, thrid said:

I think the real answer is that Leica has no interest in making a lower cost M. In the past their answer has been 'buy a used one'.
 

The proposal was never about cheap.  If the M11-S was priced the same as the M11-P, with any upgrades, I’d be happy.

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Hallo,

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[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, Kwesi said:

You are not going to see that in an M11 platform camera - no matter how low the price. 

1 - it will cost more than its worth to retool for some low cost one off run.

2 - Leica M's have moved on from off the shutter metering.

Not sure about your “re-tooling” comment, but I’m sure you’re right about #2.

Over the years since the M8, there’s been lots of speculation about what will come next, accompanied by confident predictions over what’s possible and what isn’t - almost all of it wrong.  

Leica was presumably still making M10 based digital cameras with metering off the shutter til last year, and the MP and M6 still have shutter metering.  I’m not sure where you get your confident assertion from, unless you forgot to add “in my opinion”.  

I also don’t get why it would be “one-off”.  If anything, the current M11 could be “one-off”.  If there is enough enthusiasm (as there seems to be from this small sample), I have no doubt Leica would make it, and would make it profitable.  You only need to look back to the scorn and mockery which welcomed the M Edition 60, followed by the M-D and M10-D -> buy some duct tape, don’t use the screen if you don’t like it, et etc.  The experts were strangely silent after the success of those two cameras.

Leica has a history of going backwards …

But, we’ll see.  This speculation, and bit of pipe-dreaming, will almost certainly achieve nothing.  That is a prediction I’m confident of. 🙄