Advice for a F1.4 35mm lens with a balance of compactness, distortion control and budget — Nokton 35/1.4 or ?

[Greenhilltony]

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Motivations

After purely shooting on digital for 5 months, I shift a bit back to film because my dad has the passion to develop and scan film after his retirement (He now develops C41, ECN-2 and E-6!). Also I bought a CLA’d silver M4 recently and now I enjoy it more than my black M10-P.

I mainly use the 35mm or 40mm focal lengths. I have a LLL 35/2 8E replica and the Minolta 40/2. Both of them are excellent on digital and film. As I mainly shoot with digital before, the F2 is enough to cover my needs in indoor and streets at night. Now with film, I’d like to push 5207 or 5219 to 800 to maintain my ability to do street photography in city night. I am confident to zone focus at F2.8 now but at night even at F2 I have to use slower shutter speeds than 1/125, which is hard to freeze the motions. I am considering to try a F1.4 lens.

My thoughts about the F1.4 35mm lenses…

Summilux-es are too much for my wallet to afford currently. I know the FLE and ASPH luxes are great lenses in IQ but they are also much bulkier than the F2-crons IMO. The compactness is an important consideration for me. The Nokton 35/1.4 is a famous lens—for its budget friendliness and the debate over its IQ and focus shift issues, I guess? And its focus shift make it a less proper lens on the digital sensor. But if I pair it with my M4 it would be fine right? The next doubt is the build quality of this lens. I’m afraid buying a brand new one and find it does not focus properly…and I am totally fine with a pre-owned one if it has been proven to have no issues about focusing.

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[madNbad]

Try this thread:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/296994-voigtländer-nokton-3514-ii/

[Ernstk]

If the Summilux 35 pre asph fits your budget, it's a wonderful lens. Wide open, it has a character all of its own while stopped down, from f4 onwards, it's as sharp as contemporary Summicrons. It's also very small and light. Leica have released a re-edition of the earlier version of this lens.

Ernst 

[spydrxx]

I went for the SC as most of my film shooting with Leicas is B&W. Having been a 35 shooter most of my life I was a  little apprehensive about this lens given the Ver. 1 reviews. I found a used Ver. 2 at a good price and went ahead and got it. Now I've had a chance to shoot it on both film and digital and am quite pleased with the results. Rendition reminds me of by long used Summaron wide open, and my former Summicron Asph closed down. As far as colors go I'm happier with the saturation than I was with the Summicron. These are inexpensive enough and widely enough available that you can easily get a used one to see if it works for you...I suspect it will. Build quality wasn't an issue, it seems pretty close to most of the Summicrons I've owned. For me, it is definitely a keeper.

[lct]

8 hours ago, Greenhilltony said:

The Nokton 35/1.4 is a famous lens—for its budget friendliness and the debate over its IQ and focus shift issues, I guess? And its focus shift make it a less proper lens on the digital sensor.

Was true for the Nokton 35/1.4 v1 but not for the current v2 of it. The SC variant of v2 has become my favorite non-asph 35/1.4 on digital, except when i need less distortion or more glow, in which case i take my Summilux 35/1.4 v2. But i don't use my Nokton 35/1.4 SC v1 any more, it has too much flare and focus shift for my taste. YMMV.

[RexGig0]

I believe that focus shift reports were concerning the original version, not today’s Version II. The Cosina Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.4 Version II is an amazingly good lens. It is not totally free of barrel distortion, but unless, perhaps, shooting architecture, I would think it good, as-is, based upon some shots I took inside a coffee shop, during a meet-up. Human subjects tend to look natural, to my eyes, in images with uncorrected barrel distortion of about 1%, whereas I see, and will not like 1% pincushion distortion. I very nearly ordered one of these, for myself, but, I had other financial priorities, and, already had the excellent, though large Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1,4 ZM.

When I could afford the Nokton, in July, so, was about to order one, I found that Leica USA had just received some of the Steel Rim “Re-Issue” Summiluxes, and I was able to add one to my cart. I have calculated that I will finance the Steel Rim, without paying interest, it by selling some items from another of my expensive hobbies, which I am down-sizing. I do still plan to order a Nokton 35/1.4 II, particularly for the niche of solo nocturnal urban walking-about, when I would rather not endanger a more-expensive lens, in some places.

Edited August 15, 2023 by RexGig0

[28framelines]

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1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

Basically the exact same description as the 35f1.4 Nokton II, only at a 1/4th! of the price and brand new.

From the OP I see $3,000 isn’t in his budget. 

in some blind tests I’ve seen, people actually prefer the output of the Nokton vs some of those $3,000 Leicas. And to put it in perspective, I traded my 28 Ultron for a brand new 35 Nokton II SC and the lens ended up costing me $210 bucks. Hood included + a $50 B+W clear filter.

I was all in with the 50 Cron and I’m glad I paid every penny for that lens. But looking at the 35mm non-ASPH choices I just couldn’t justify the expense when the Nokton II exists. 

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I wish Voigtlander published the MTF charts for the 35mm Nokton Classic; I know the new Summilux SR has very minimal distortion, but I’d love to see what the real comparison is on the Nokton.

[Ouroboros]

10 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

I wish Voigtlander published the MTF charts for the 35mm Nokton Classic; I know the new Summilux SR has very minimal distortion, but I’d love to see what the real comparison is on the Nokton.

Why?
It’s not a lens that’s likely to be used for architectural illustrative or scientific photography.  

The summilux sr reissue will distort your bank account much more.

 

[Huss]

Out of all the 35s I have (ok the Lomo is a 32), the one I use the most is the CV 35 1.4 II.  Just a fantastic price/performance/size combo.  The one I use the least is the behemoth Zeiss ZM Distagon.

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[Ko.Fe.]

CV Nokton 35 1.4 MKI was so-so lens. Some copies with enormous focus shifts and plenty of distortions.

Build quality of CV VM lenses is variable depending on type. CV has several VM, LTM types. Nokton is one of them, where worst what could happed is loose focus tab and loose lens block. But it requires few hundreds of film meters per year for couple of so years.

I have seen MKI which went through plenty of use. It was all intact (perhaps already serviced) and typical for this type of CV VM lens slightly stiff focusing was very smooth.

 

As for maximum aperture and film push. I don't know those numbers. I used TMAX3200 @6400, HP5+ @3200 and Kentmere/Arista  400 @1600. 

The trick was to print, not scan. And scan the prints for sharing. Prints doesn't need to be huge. 5x7, 8x10 are enough. 

Also those who comes from digital often afraid of motion blur because it is often looks uglier than on film.

And film M shutter allows much lower than 1/125 speed.

 

I recommend to see what lenses you already have could do. It takes long time to understand each lens on film. Full year at least.

I had all three versions of Color Skopar on film rangefinders over four or so years. And I have tried Nokton 35 1.4 MKII.

Both have lack of something like micro-contrast.

But, again, to see what lens could do on BW film, it has to be on the darkroom print. 

For color film, I was doing only scans and much less than BW. And CV lenses of this type were fine. Very good saturation, at least.

 

CV had very good lens on bw film which was LTM first version of Ultron 35 1.7. The rendering was with Leica microcontact.  But lens suffers from loose lens block (fixable) and many copies have internal fog which is most likely not repairable. 

 

This one was almost in darkness with something like 1/4 and HP5 @3200. It is scan, print would show up cleaner. 

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I never figured out those white spots on the scans of bw film, but they were not on darkroom prints and film scratches from bulk loaders were also invisible on darkroom prints.

This one was in dark spot. It was so dark I can't see any dials on M and lens.

HP5 also @3200, but it is darkroom scan. 

 

As extreme, you could ask try bw film in Dectol or Lith developer. It show how nice film grain could be.

And if time is not an issue, google search might show how to do mix developing of ECN-2 in its native or C-41 and BW developer. 

Also, ECN-2 color film is sharp and  low grain film in bw developers. And printable under enlarger.

 

Old versions of Kodak 50D are interesting to try. 

 

One more thing. If you'll go for f1.4 on film, watch it for curtains holes, if you leave lens wide open under sun.

I have burned curtain within few minutes by walking with f1.5 on the snow on sunny day. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Ko.Fe.

[hansvons]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:06 AM, Greenhilltony said:

The Nokton 35/1.4 is a famous lens—for its budget friendliness and the debate over its IQ and focus shift issues, I guess?

I shot tons of stuff with the 35mm Nokton V2 SC on M6 and M4-P. On film, it’s a great little allrounder, leaving nothing to be desired - if you are looking for a character lens. Because it’s a tiny f1.4 double Gauss design you get all the imperfections you would expect. It’s quite similar to the Steel Rim reissue.

I’d get the SC single coated version (I also owned the MC version) because that version is even truer to the character inherent to its design. At 1,4 it’s soft and shows glowy highlights, but the centre is usable sharp. At f5.6 it a pretty sharp lens from corner to corner, usable for landscape shots. On film, vignetting is not too much pronounced, even at full aperture. Like Leicas classic 35mm lenses, it renders faces on the flatter side despite showing some barrel distortion. Again like the Leicas, it shows a distinct bent focal plane at full aperture, which straightens up at f 4.0. 

The V2 shows hardly any focus shift. The price of used lenses is relatively stable. Buying new won’t burn a hole in your wallet and you will get a high-quality lens, comparable to Leica’s offerings. 
 

Highly recommended!

[Greenhilltony]

1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

But the v2 focus shift won’t be an issue in normal use. Only at f4 it may be a little he softer, but things are still within the depth of focus, so I don’t think you’ll notice it unless you’re really looking for it. Other than that small blip of sharpness at f4 the v2 is right on target. 

 

34 minutes ago, hansvons said:

t 1,4 it’s soft and shows glowy highlights, but the centre is usable sharp. At f5.6 it a pretty sharp lens from corner to corner, usable for landscape shots. On film, vignetting is not too much pronounced, even at full aperture. Like Leicas classic 35mm lenses, it renders faces on the flatter side despite showing some barrel distortion. Again like the Leicas, it shows a distinct bent focal plane at full aperture, which straightens up at f 4.0. 

Thanks very much! It sounds like the focus shift issue is at the same or similar extent to my copy of Light Lens Lab 35 8E replica. It shifts most obviously at F4. But considering the Nokton is a 1.4 maximum aperture lens, it suppresses the shift more impressively. I will go to a local Voigtlander distributor to try it with my M10-P in the future.

[hmzimelka]

9 hours ago, hansvons said:

I shot tons of stuff with the 35mm Nokton V2 SC on M6 and M4-P. On film, it’s a great little allrounder, leaving nothing to be desired - if you are looking for a character lens.

Other than a little high on the barrel distortion side... (for me at least)

I wish it were a little less strong, perhaps like the SR reissue which seems to have a low and very manageable amount of barrel distortion. It's probably the only thing holding me back from ordering the Nokton at this point. 

[madNbad]

1 hour ago, hmzimelka said:

Other than a little high on the barrel distortion side... (for me at least)

I wish it were a little less strong, perhaps like the SR reissue which seems to have a low and very manageable amount of barrel distortion. It's probably the only thing holding me back from ordering the Nokton at this point. 

I have a 35 Nokton SC V2 and it has quickly become a favorite lens. I use it on film bodies and find the results very good throughout the aperture range. It's a six hundred dollar lens. The 35 Summilux Steel Rim reissue is almost four thousand dollars so I would expect it to perform better. These threads often expect the same level of both build and image quality from a lens that cost a fraction of the Leica version. I would love to have a Summilux but couldn't justify it for my needs or budget.

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

I wish it were a little less strong, perhaps like the SR reissue which seems to have a low and very manageable amount of barrel distortion.

I'd call the Nokton's barrel distortion manageable. This is different if you print the negative, of course. But digitally, it's a non-issue for me. But I can see that purists want the complete package. That's why, besides mythos and fame, Leica exists. But you have to pay for that easily fivefold. 

[hmzimelka]

11 hours ago, madNbad said:

I have a 35 Nokton SC V2 and it has quickly become a favorite lens. I use it on film bodies and find the results very good throughout the aperture range. It's a six hundred dollar lens. The 35 Summilux Steel Rim reissue is almost four thousand dollars so I would expect it to perform better. These threads often expect the same level of both build and image quality from a lens that cost a fraction of the Leica version. I would love to have a Summilux but couldn't justify it for my needs or budget.

I'm not expecting the SR performance from the Nokton. I prefer the Nokton in every way except barrel distortion. And build? Yeah, the new SR remake I had the pleasure of using did not have the fit and finish of the Nokton. The latter felt nicer, it just wasn't silver and didn't have Leica written on the front. And the hood was usable too.

[Cobram]

2 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

I'm not expecting the SR performance from the Nokton. I prefer the Nokton in every way except barrel distortion. And build? Yeah, the new SR remake I had the pleasure of using did not have the fit and finish of the Nokton. The latter felt nicer, it just wasn't silver and didn't have Leica written on the front. And the hood was usable too.

I'm also interested in this lens but can't pull the trigger due to barrel distortion. I don't care too much about (clinical) sharpness, but distortion really bothers me. It somehow it deteriorate the view of the photo when I look at it on the wall, make it un-natural, less pleasing to my eye.

Is there any Lightroom distortion correction profile available? Any examples?

[Ouroboros]

I really don’t understand why people want or expect optical perfection from a lens that is not, by design or intent, optically perfect!

with the VM 35mm Nokton Classic ii, the hint is in the name, you get a lens that is an excellent low light and creative asset at wide aperture settings as well as being sharp and corrected well enough when stopped down to satisfy most non-technical applications.

I’ve had my sc ii for coming up to two weeks, I’ve used up several rolls of Tri-X with it and my son has processed the first for me whilst I’m currently away.  The negatives are perfect, and his scans show me that the centre resolution at full aperture is sharp enough at portrait distances.  
I see no reason why anyone would need to wring their hands in anguish about distortion when looking at a framed print on the wall.

It’s a fine lens and a relative bargain for what it offers for film and digital M users. 
 

Frankly, I think CV have reached a stage of expertise throughout their lens range which makes you question why you would need to spend £1000’s more on Leica close equivalent lenses.

The 35mm f1.4 nokton classic ii makes the Leica sr reissue with it’s hood design fiasco and reported manufacturing issues look like an expensive joke.

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[Greenhilltony]

16 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I really don’t understand why people want or expect optical perfection from a lens that is not, by design or intent, optically perfect!

with the VM 35mm Nokton Classic ii, the hint is in the name, you get a lens that is an excellent low light and creative asset at wide aperture settings as well as being sharp and corrected well enough when stopped down to satisfy most non-technical applications.

I’ve had my sc ii for coming up to two weeks, I’ve used up several rolls of Tri-X with it and my son has processed the first for me whilst I’m currently away.  The negatives are perfect, and his scans show me that the centre resolution at full aperture is sharp enough at portrait distances.  
I see no reason why anyone would need to wring their hands in anguish about distortion when looking at a framed print on the wall.

It’s a fine lens and a relative bargain for what it offers for film and digital M users. 
 

Frankly, I think CV have reached a stage of expertise throughout their lens range which makes you question why you would need to spend £1000’s more on Leica close equivalent lenses.

The 35mm f1.4 nokton classic ii makes the Leica sr reissue with it’s hood design fiasco and reported manufacturing issues look like an expensive joke.

In fact, the reason why I put emphasis to barrel distortion control is: I don't want to pay the subscription for a full-featured LR on iPad, which unlocks the correction panels. That's why I'm satisfied with the M-Rokkor 40/2 and Light Lens Lab 35/2 but not the optically remarkable VM 35/2 Ultron II. The Ultron has quite noticeable barrel distortion at 2-3 meters, and those are my favourite distances to play streetphotography, and people are frequently placed off-centre for the composition and story-telling. It's just a personal taste, weighing sharpness, bokeh, distortion, corner perfectness in different manner. I can't speak for others who are concerned of the barrel distortions on VM 35/1.4 II of course.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Greenhilltony

[Huss]

2 hours ago, Greenhilltony said:

In fact, the reason why I put emphasis to barrel distortion control is: I don't want to pay the subscription for a full-featured LR on iPad, which unlocks the correction panels. That's why I'm satisfied with the M-Rokkor 40/2 and Light Lens Lab 35/2 but not the optically remarkable VM 35/2 Ultron II. The Ultron has quite noticeable barrel distortion at 2-3 meters, and those are my favourite distances to play streetphotography, and people are frequently placed off-centre for the composition and story-telling. It's just a personal taste, weighing sharpness, bokeh, distortion, corner perfectness in different manner. I can't speak for others who are concerned of the barrel distortions on VM 35/1.4 II of course.

Ok, so the Nokton 35 1.4 II is a no go for you.  What other cheap, compact fast 35s are you looking at?