Help re upgrade to M-10R or M11

[RexGig0]

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If battery capacity is important, one may wish to o’er-leap the M10-series. I use both M Type 246 and M10 cameras. Not only does an M10 consume its batteries’ juices rather quickly during use, but, the M10’s batteries self-discharge, to a disappointing degree, during storage, whether inside the camera, or not. I had actually considered buying a pre-loved 262, especially an M-D Type 262, to be a traveling companion for the M 246 Monochrom, using the 262 for color images, and the 246 for monochrome images, with both cameras sharing the same batteries. (That was before I leapt at a rare opportunity to acquire a new “Re-Edition” Steel Rim 35mm Summilux, which consumed most of my discretionary funds, for 2023. Just as well; cameras require some amount of care and feeding, whereas lenses eat comparatively little, asking only to kept in a clean, relatively dry place.)

In my personal case, having added the Leica M system only five years ago, when I was already accustomed to SLRs and DSLRs, I am not so enamored of removing the bottom plate, to change batteries or SD cards. Charging with a USB-C cable is something that makes plenty of sense, to me. These, and other M11 features, are appealing. (This does not mean that I been in any hurry to upgrade to the M11. (If Leica keeps supporting the M10-series, long-term, I may not upgrade cameras. I would rather add the occasional lens, every few years.) 

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[RexGig0]

I typed my previous reply post before noticing that you had decided to keep your 262. So, it is now relevant to mention the high ISO performance of the M Type 246 Monochrom, a camera which can share batteries with your 262. Here are some relevant resources:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/04/leica-m-monochrom-typ-246-review/

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/

Notably, Red Dot Forum is associated with Leica Store Miami, a business which would be glad to sell all of us new M11 cameras, and the range of new M11 accessories. So, when David Farkas shows us how well a 2015 camera performs, in comparison to modern cameras, he is showing personal integrity, rather than prioritizing his financial interests. I appreciate that. The 2020 high ISO comparison, as seen in the second of the above links, affirmed my decisions, in both 2021 and 2022, to indefinitely postpone upgrading M camera bodies, beyond my original-version M10 and my M Type 246 cameras. In 2022, I added better lenses, including “faster” lenses, to let more light into my M cameras. Then, in 2023, I added one more “fast” lens. I doubt that I will be able to justify buying a newer M camera, within the foreseeable future, but do not feel deprived.

Edited August 22, 2023 by RexGig0

[Alberti]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:30 PM, otto.f said:

the difference is one stop at a high level, around 3200/6400. Is that significant for where you come from? Look  at the image threads of both camera's and see what people show what they like in either camera, and draw your conclusion. And btw, if you have heard the shutter of the M10-R, coming from a 262, you will know.

The M240, when you just use the 'exposure sliders', will have grain. Of course.

But I was astonished with this picture: totally underexposed.

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Then LR came to my escape, and helped me out: the auto button choose + 3.3 stops. Now that is a remarkable result.

I yet have to see the M10-R do that trick.

(M240-P, 28mm lens wide open)

[Alberti]

Well, at least the sensor of the M11 does not heat up.

With the M10-R, if you use live view and keep it running, the body warms up considerably, the sensor will get really hot; hence the geometry (wobbling in sharpness) will be impacted I expect, and with such a thin sensor, maybe it could be seen with some lenses.

So -  if you use the EVF or back for live view a lot, then I would ponder this a bit.

[otto.f]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:41 PM, Alberti said:

I yet have to see the M10-R do that trick.

Very nice indeed. I did some post corrections with night photo’s with my M10-R but certainly not as far as 3.3

[RexGig0]

The author of the original post has decided to keep his M Type 262, but, for anyone else pondering the same or similar, I was handling my cameras, yesterday, and was reminded of another significant difference that appeared on the M10, that being the larger thumb rest that is integral with the camera body. Anyone who needs the hot shoe for an EVF, electronic Visoflex, or a shoe-mounted flash will be unable to use a simultaneously use an add-on thumb rest that affixes to the hot shoe. My individual right hand is very well-served by the M10’s integral thumb rest. The comparatively smaller thumb rest of a 240-series camera is adequate, for me, when shooting two-handed, because I am accustomed to using my left hand to provide most of the support for the camera and lens, but for the rare occasions when one-handed shooting is necessary or preferred, I really notice that my 246 has a smaller thumb support. 

[Adam Bonn]

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4 stops just on the exp slider not the best way to play this game (needs other edits too) but the 10R seems capable enough IMHO, OMMV

[Olaf_ZG]

How do you guys get such underexposed photos?

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Take the M 10-R together with the APO-Summicron 35 mm and  you will be happy. As to my opinion the old Visoflex is better than the new Visoflex 2. Inspite of my S3 in the meantime I prefere my M 10-R.

 

[otto.f]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:32 PM, Adam Bonn said:

4 stops

 

9 hours ago, Al Brown said:

On 9/5/2023 at 5:41 PM, Alberti said:

 

If you have not seen it yet it suerly does not mean it cannot be done

You are both right, thanks for correcting. If you just don’t start with shooting at 1600 or 3200 which I did.

[jakontil]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:11 PM, otto.f said:

 

You are both right, thanks for correcting. If you just don’t start with shooting at 1600 or 3200 which I did.

glad it sorted out, i was beginning to doubt my m10r

[liquid-p]

I too was in this boat, and after countless hours researching I ended up going with the M10-P.  I never thought of even going that route, but when I finally thought of all the m11 issues and price I just couldn't justify the price. So I ordered the M10R, and while waiting for it to be delivered I started looking at the M10P and found an amazing deal on a used one. Knowing I could return the R, I went ahead and bought the P as well. When I had both I really didn't see such a huge difference in image quality. I did have the extra megapixels, but when I zoomed to 100% it really wasn't much. and If I zoomed to 200% on the P, the quality hadn't degraded enough to see a huge difference. To me unless I am going to be printing huge photos, I really couldn't justify the price difference. I really do not regret the decision. With the money I saved I ended up getting a 50mm summilux. I do see myself upgrading to the M11 at some point. Just not now, Maybe in a couple years once the kinks have been ironed out of it.  Hope this helps.  No matter what you decide, you can't go wrong. 

[davidfung]

Digging up an old thread, but more than a year has gone by and I could not resist and ended up trading in my trusty 262 for a M11P. A few thoughts, after a thousand or so shots on the M11P (incl. all too many ‘test’ shots). 

• The EVF is awesome; coming from none is awesome and have an SL2 and comparing it to the VF2, it is still pretty good - not as good as the SL2 though. 
• The rear screen is now actually useful for reviewing images, colour and focus.
• The slimmer body is welcomed, but I do agree with some that the slightly wider body of the 240/262 is better for holding larger lenses (my hands are medium). 
• ISO dial is useful.
• The newer menu system is nice, esp. since the same as SL2 and the DLux8.

By far the biggest improvement is the image quality. Having 60 MP I think gives me the flexibility to crop without using longer lenses. If I use a 135mm and crop half, it gives equivalent of 270mm at 15 MP. Still very useful. And I could crop down to say 8 MP and get an equivalent lens of 360mm at the long end. If I use a 28mm, the 60 MP allows me to have an equivalent of 75mm @ 8 MP. And to be honest, 8MP is plenty large enough for typical digital sharing. My printer only prints to A3+, so I really only need a max of 15 MP. However, I also find the images sampled down from the M11MP looks different than the 262 images.

The lower noise and the better colour (to me) is another welcomed feature, though the 262 colours weren’t too bad to begin with. When I initially took some photos with the M11 and shared them with my son (low res over messaging), his first impression was ‘wow, they are so good’, even though he has since plenty from my other cameras. So I think that the difference is appreciable to the non-photographer. BUT, that could be due to different lens combos and improvement in technique by the photographer. 

However, I do think that the battery life is much worse than the 262, but given the above, carrying an extra battery and/or USB-C portable battery is a small price to pay!