Summicron 35mm V4 ("King of Bokeh") vs. Apsh V1 on Film

[Neongrain]

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Dear Leica Forum Members,

I know there are already some topics that issue this Comparison between the V4 Summicron 35mm and the Asph V1 Version, however since I only photgraph on my M6 and therefore only shoot film (it is the only camera I have), I wanted to know if there is a visible difference in Image Quality, concerning, i.e. sharpness between the 2 lenses. I do not care so much about the bokeh, since I photograph a lot of architecture. Also, which of the two would you recommend for shooting film with. I scan mostly with a Nikon Coolscan with 4000 DPI and also do some prints from time to time.

Thank you so much already for helping me out! It would be awesome to see some direct comparison pictures (a bit more than kenrockwell provides and preferably on film) and maybe someone who has both can share their experience

Cheers Vinz.

 

[nitroplait]

1 hour ago, Neongrain said:

I do not care so much about the bokeh, since I photograph a lot of architecture. Also, which of the two would you recommend for shooting film with.

 

The newer one - the Asph!

No sense in considering a wobble-prone-hard-to-fix-overpriced V4 if you area not in it for the bokeh.

[Bronco McBeast]

5 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

The newer one - the Asph!

No sense in considering a wobble-prone-hard-to-fix-overpriced V4 if you area not in it for the bokeh.

What bokeh? The V4 is not a bokeh specialist by any stretch of the imagination.

[nitroplait]

1 hour ago, Bronco McBeast said:

What bokeh? The V4 is not a bokeh specialist by any stretch of the imagination.

It is because people think they have to shoot wide open to get bokeh-value-for-money. V4 is unremarkable wide open..
On the other hand V4 has exceptional beautiful transitions in the OOF areas in the 4-5.6 range, which was the reason it got its king-of-bokeh reputation in the first place.

The Internet has a way of distorting and amplifying things in the weirdest directions.

[shirubadanieru]

The V4 is a much better lens, rendering wise, than the ASPH, if your way of measuring performance is not via MTF charts. The ASPH rendering is boring, the lens is twice as large and heavy almost, the V4 is so small and a pleasure to use. The rendering too is really pleasing and interesting at f2, and from f2.8 onwards it’s tack sharp, while not being boring/clinical like the ASPH. I would recommend latter serials, as the built quality is improved.

[mediumformula]

The V4 weighs about 100 grams less than the Asph, and it is smaller.  I went hiking with my M11M and my v4 in the Colorado Rockies today.  The whole set up weighs about 700 grams.  The lens is very sharp and handles well. 

[Neongrain]

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Thank you all for your kind advices so far

Does anyone has maybe some pictures on film on f2 of both or the v4 lens?

I am really torn to the v4 because of its compactness and toward the asph because of its sharpness wide open, since I really want a versitile lens in a compact size factor, which I think both lenses do pretty well. 

Main question/conern right now: I am just wondering how much sharper the Apsh. really is on film and if you can even see a difference at all.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Neongrain

[hansvons]

18 hours ago, Neongrain said:

I do not care so much about the bokeh, since I photograph a lot of architecture.

I bought the ASPH for precisely this kind of photography. I wanted a 35mm lens for my M6 and SL2-S that allows for sharp long shots at f4.0 and doesn't vignette too pronounced for this kind of photography. Compared to its older siblings, the more "regular" rendering ASPH shows better corner sharpness at all apertures. It will be tack-sharp throughout the frame already at f4.0, which older Summicrons don't do to that extent (there's a reason why Leica changed the design).

But if you were looking for a character lens for medium long shots and medium close-ups (e.g. environmental portraits), the earlier Summcirons offer more soul. 

Remember that it's still a film-age lens design and thus optimised for film Ms.

6 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

The ASPH rendering is boring,

I can't confirm that. Its personality is more subtle, for sure. But it flares nicely and offers a bent focal plane at full aperture.

 

6 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

The rendering too is really pleasing and interesting at f2, and from f2.8 onwards it’s tack sharp, while not being boring/clinical like the ASPH.

That is precisely not the case, in my opinion. Below is an ASPH shot at f2.0. Please note the pronounced bent focal plane. This is a digital shot (SL2S). But the ASPH behaves similarly on film yet is less noticeable, which also counts for the vignetting. Click to enlarge.

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Below a long shot with the M6 and the 35mm Summciron ASPH on Kodak 5207 at f 5.6. Click to enlarge:

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by hansvons

[a.noctilux]

If your choice is version IV, try to choose if possible "Made in Germany" to get trouble free model.

weighting can "explain" 155g/135g but mainly the plastic parts replaced by metallic parts.

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same optical cell, nice lenses though

inner synthetic part can break on canadian Summicron IV

Canada made, 135g

 

in this thread,

we can see some Kodachrome taken with Summicrons (35/50/90), so 35 IV

[Ouroboros]

If you make a big mistake by buying the v1 asph and cart it all over the world for over 20 years and counting on your pointless travels like I do, you can console yourself in the knowledge that boring and clinical images are made by boring camera owners.  The lens is not to blame.

As long as you remain a non-boring photographer, the asph will provide you with decades of non-boring images on colour or black and white film.

It’s a photographer’s philosophy that boring camera owners  will never understand.

[hansvons]

14 minutes ago, Neongrain said:

I am really torn to the v4 because of its compactness and toward the asph because of its sharpness wide open, since I really want a versitile lens in a compact size factor, which I think both lenses do pretty well. 

The difference in size/weight between the V4 and the ASPH is noticeable, but it's not an issue for me in daily use. The only lens in the 35mm category whose small size makes a real difference is the Voigtländer 35mm Color Skopar 2,5. Unfortunately, it renders too dimensional faces for my taste, it vignettes and smears in the corners too much, plus the colours are too cold.

[Alberti]

17 hours ago, Bronco McBeast said:

What bokeh? The V4 is not a bokeh specialist by any stretch of the imagination.

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The 35mm v4 wide-open is not a specialist lens for a background rendering (the slight sharpness-enhancing rings can be seen and can be nervous at times) but what I like is the transition in the foreground, from the plane of focus (M10-R) which is sooo smooth imho.  And . .  talking about a plane - see how elements of all three bags fit into it (no EVF used).

Mine has a brittle plastic ring, so I have to use it as long as it goes; I have the 35V1 too by the way and there is quite some difference.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Alberti

[nitroplait]

If compactness becomes the deciding factor for you, consider the 35/2 V3. Basically a V4 without the cost cutting.
Also with the Mandler design signature. Ergonomically better than V2 but marginally less so compared to V4.

Cheaper than the V4 as well - especially if you decide to seek out a late  V4.

V3 is Leica CEO Dr. Andreas Kaufmann’s favorite 35mm/2.0 - he is using it on a digital M11 - mind you.

Knowing he can have anything from the top shelf and has access to all the insider knowledge he desires, should tell you something.
I have no idea if he is a good photographer though. 
Maybe he takes bad photographs with a good lens or vice versa.😄

Still, if optical quality in the objective sense matters to you, I’ll still recommend the asph.

Edited July 30, 2023 by nitroplait

[Bronco McBeast]

I own both (obviously) and used both a lot.

The V4, to me, comes across as an economy cheapened version. Actually, ever since the V1 which is truly the very best 35mm, all models have been cheapened versions EXCEPT the latest apo asph.

The V4 produces images that mix all sorts of imperfections, which magically mix to bring a poetic image with unique colors. That mix comes across (to me) as a lucky mix that, in the end, creates beautiful images.

The Asph 35mm cron is a better corrected lens that has been created wity the street shooter in mind and, indeed, it shows. The focus is suuuper easy and the 1-3-5-infinity positions are exactly where they should be fir quick shooting. The V4, as oposed to the Asph, has the 3-5 meter position in an awkward position.

The Asph, wide open, is also exceptional. Very creamy and the transitions are smooth and quite remarkable.

 

I concede, the asph is less quirky in its image rendering, therefore it is seen as more “sterile”. Hiwever, wide open it  is better, sharper and better transitions, and it is created abd engineered for the quick street shooter in mind. 

[Lelmer]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

If your choice is version IV, try to choose if possible "Made in Germany" to get trouble free model.

weighting can "explain" 155g/135g but mainly the plastic parts replaced by metallic parts.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

same optical cell, nice lenses though

inner synthetic part can break on canadian Summicron IV

Canada made, 135g

 

in this thread,

we can see some Kodachrome taken with Summicrons (35/50/90), so 35 IV

The improvement was also implemented on the lest "Canada" models. Mine was made in Canada and weights 155g...

[Erato]

3 hours ago, Neongrain said:

Thank you all for your kind advices so far

Does anyone has maybe some pictures on film on f2 of both or the v4 lens?

I am really torn to the v4 because of its compactness and toward the asph because of its sharpness wide open, since I really want a versitile lens in a compact size factor, which I think both lenses do pretty well. 

Main question/conern right now: I am just wondering how much sharper the Apsh. really is on film and if you can even see a difference at all.

It seems that you're pretty fascinating by a typical neon light effect which is more likely the Summilux-M 35mm V2 could meet your demand if my impression from your gallery is correct. As a reminder, either Pre-A, Summicron V4 or Summilux-M V1/V2, they all have their own signatures but the CA are less good as FLE or the latest Summicron.

IMHO, it doesn't make too much difference while you stopped down to F5.6 or so.

[Neongrain]

I am currently thinking about getting the Asph V1, since it sits right in the sweetspot between the V4 and the latest version, considering its size and performance. I git the V5 Summicron and to me its the perfect lens. A freind of mine got the FLE 35mm which I was able to try out some time and I loved everything about it but its size. Furthermore I think 1.4 is not necessary on a M6 since I am able to shoot handhold at 1/15 to 1/30 of a second.

If I would own the 35mm Summilux FLE I think I would get the V4 Summicron.

[Danner]

The V1 ASPH is a sharper lens with considerably higher micro-contrast.  On the other hand, the V4 KoB makes considerably more pleasing images (on film) to my eye.  I consider the V4 to the finest Leica-lens I own, and will never sell it.

[Neongrain]

14 minutes ago, Danner said:

The V1 ASPH is a sharper lens with considerably higher micro-contrast.  On the other hand, the V4 KoB makes considerably more pleasing images (on film) to my eye.  I consider the V4 to the finest Leica-lens I own, and will never sell it.

Do you have some example pictures on film for both lenses? And hwo would you rate both in terms of sharpness? Is there a visible difference on film?

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[a.noctilux]

@Neongrain,

The two lenses are not easily "seen" differences with other's images.

I was happy user of 35mm IV on film for decades, then when the asph. 2/35 was launched, I tried it and fell in love, I bought the three types of available asph. (black, silver, titanium coated)...use them a while to "see" that those are good lenses but "not for me" anymore, not in optical quality, I sold them quickly to users who needed them.

 

We need to try out ourselves.

Just buy one, use it a while then decide as educated user.

35mm on M are so nice to hesitate.

I use many lenses on M, maybe the most I do own is 35mm lenses, neither one is "perfect" anyway.