M11 future repairs

[Bobonli]

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Posted 14 hours ago

Bottom line - I do not expect to get more than 10 years maximum out of any digital camera. I may get more - but I do not count on it.

I think that's being generous. A digital camera is a computer that you can attach a lens to. Tons of things change in the course of time that might render it less useful: battery technology, sensor performance, software upgrades and support, etc. In the computer world, you're lucky if you get 3 years out of a laptop before it either breaks or you've outgrown the memory capacity or CPU performance as software gets more and more bloated. The camera may turn on in 10 years, but will the company keep supporting it with firmware upgrades, will you be able to buy replacement batteries?

I just re-entered the M-etaverse with an M4-P and really enjoy the size and the glass, of course. Now, maybe, something digital is whispering to me and I read all the "slow repair" threads and folks having issues with their M-computers-with-a-lens-on-front and I'm thankful that's there's nothing on my camera that can break or require firmware upgrade under normal usage.  I have a Nikon D200 that still boots up for a few minutes but the image quality is awful compared to even my phone at this point. It still works, but I have no intention of using it.

[IkarusJohn]

Yeah I read Andy’s post and thought … maybe … but …

The thing is, the camera isn’t a computer; it’s a camera.  Out of the box, the beautiful cameras should just take pictures using Leica’s fabulous legacy of lenses.  It runs on it’s own firmware; we don’t load Apps or process spreadsheets.  All it needs to do is do what it says on the box, without firmware upgrades, RAM expansion, new hard drives and nor should it require replacement because bloated software has made it grind to a halt, or because Leica no longer supports the firmware.  It isn’t an Apple product … it’s a camera with one task.

All it needs to do is keep on doing what it was supposed to do when it came out of the box - preferably in keeping with its fabulous body and rangefinder mechanism.  Alternatively, if we are to treat it as a piece of shortlived electronics, put it in a plastic body which reflects the crappy quality of the electronics inside and price it accordingly.

To a large degree, it isn’t really Leica’s fault - it’s a reflection of the electronics industry, and what is available.  Apparently, the sensors and electronics which have plagued successive digital Leicas, and the firmware, aren’t cheap, despite being flawed.  

When you add what technology can offer, rather than what photography actually needs, you end up with the M11 - offering a whole lot of extra stuff, but failing in the simple ability to reliably turn on and take pictures.

I hope the next digital M is a simple upgrade of the M9 and M10 (no baseplate) - good sensor, good shutter, rangefinder.  That’s it.  Do the very best with the very least.  Then, I might buy one.  

[jaapv]

Errm.. the M9 and M10 are packed with the same “crappy” electronics…

[IkarusJohn]

12 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Errm.. the M9 and M10 are packed with the same “crappy” electronics…

Yep - better sensor and better electronics. Hard to understand?

[jaapv]

Where do you base that on ?  Yes, hard to understand. 

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

Where do you base that on ?  Yes, hard to understand. 

Sorry I haven’t made myself clear, Jaap.

The M9 based sensor failure was massive (both my M9 and Monochrom and yours); and speaking for myself, the electronics of every digital Leica I have owned have failed (M Edition 60, SL and most recently my M10).  I don’t think I’m alone.  Now we have the M11 freezes and bricks.  I think you know all of this.  My “crappy electronics” comment is well justified, for such an expensive camera.

What would get me to buy another M digital?  A reliable, digital M “das wesentliche” - a refinement of the M10.  We aren’t there yet. 

Do less, do it better is more consistent with what got me interested in Leica.

[jaapv]

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The M9 sensor failure had nothing to do with the electronics. It was corrosion of the IR filter. I was a design decision that was scuppered by the inability of Kodak (or Schott) to provide a coating that was free of microporosities. 
I never had an electronic failure over twenty years with a multitude of cameras of various brands, both expensive and cheap. Personal case histories do not make a fact. These freezes probably have to do with timing issues in the firmware, not with the quality of the electronics.
 The way electronic components break down  is usually early failure of a component. It tells us nothing about longevity which this thread is about. In my experience electronic components are better at surviving time than mechanics in general.

Correction: My M240 had a mainboard failure after a short time of use. Leica gave me a brand new loaner and replaced it. The only instance I recall. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

From my understanding, it is the "infant mortality" category to which most digital electronic systems failure can be assigned. 

In other words, the failure of *electronic* components themselves often happens differently from the simple wear and tear of electromechanical devices (such as an electronically actuated mechanical shutter, which is subject to mechanical wear).

Most light bulbs burn out immediately after you hit the switch; whether from accumulating weaknesses and wear or inborn flaws in manufacturing, failure will most likely occur at power-up.

An exception is the slow degradation and failure associated with heat: the windings of a transformer, for example, though even there, if the component has been weakened over time, it's mostly likely to go up in smoke at power-up.

All of these are distinguished from operational failures associated with digital control governed by firmware (which is simply software residing in a somewhat less volatile medium).

Though bad firmware can doom a system, it's most likely to do so by providing incomplete or faulty instructions to the operation of the system. Admittedly, if those instructions result in either mechanical or thermal stress, it increases the likelihood of mechanical or thermal failure. 

My sense from dealing with folks who design and maintain such systems is that these observations largely apply for both the digital and the electromechanical components in many of today's ridiculously complex products (cameras, automobiles, air conditioners, computers, aircraft, anything controlled through a touch panel).

Remember when first we realized our car has a computer in it, running fuel/air mixture and timing, for example? Gone are the days. Today our car has *multiple* computers, receiving data from countless sensors, running systems from engine to transmission to climate control to locks and windows. All of these computers in the car are interconnected, networked, by something that is essentially ethernet: the CAN, the Car Area Network.

Add GPS and cellular internet connectivity and the level of interaction and integration between our cars and the digital systems observing traffic, weather, and practically anything else you can think of, will be complete.

Worried about firmware? Wait till it's running your self-driving, self-navigating, situationally-aware automobile down the freeway during rush hour....

In the immortal words of Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott (ahem, add Scottish Brogue),

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."

Edited July 30, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[jaapv]

I once had a Volvo and not the cheapest which regularly had to be towed because the computers broke down. In the end a Bosch service found out that the paint had not been properly removed from an earth contact causing power surges 

[DadDadDaddyo]

Classic....

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

The M9 sensor failure had nothing to do with the electronics. It was corrosion of the IR filter. I was a design decision that was scuppered by the inability of Kodak (or Schott) to provide a coating that was free of microporosities. 
I never had an electronic failure over twenty years with a multitude of cameras of various brands, both expensive and cheap. Personal case histories do not make a fact. These freezes probably have to do with timing issues in the firmware, not with the quality of the electronics.
 The way electronic components break down  is usually early failure of a component. It tells us nothing about longevity which this thread is about. In my experience electronic components are better at surviving time than mechanics in general.

Correction: My M240 had a mainboard failure after a short time of use. Leica gave me a brand new loaner and replaced it. The only instance I recall. 

Ah well, Jaap, you can draw a distinction between cover glass and “electronics” all you like, but it’s all one unit.  It doesn’t change the point.

[Photoworks]

well, we have seen how many times it takes Leica to create stable firmware. Considering the On Time OS is bug-free, it must be the skill of the programmers that cause the issues. 

Hardware problems have been minimal. Seen some issues being resolved, we have to assume that most of them are software.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Ah well, Jaap, you can draw a distinction between cover glass and “electronics” all you like, but it’s all one unit.  It doesn’t change the point.

It is not in one unit. The light-gathering wafer with the electronic connections is made by the sensor printer, it is just an analog photon capturing device. The optical parts are glued on and the sensor is connected to its motherboard. Sometimes the sensor is soldered onto the motherboard.  You can see the distinction when you consider that there are parties replacing the cover glass, removing the Bayer filter, etc. The point was that the failure of the M9 sensor was not electronic but optical. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

well, we have seen how many times it takes Leica to create stable firmware. Considering the On Time OS is bug-free, it must be the skill of the programmers that cause the issues. 

Hardware problems have been minimal. Seen some issues being resolved, we have to assume that most of them are software.

Indeed. I doubt however that the competence of the engineers is in question. It must be a nightmare job to graft 21st century technology into a mid- 20th century system

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is not in one unit. The light-gathering wafer with the electronic connections is made by the sensor printer, it is just an analog photon capturing device. The optical parts are glued on and the sensor is connected to its motherboard. Sometimes the sensor is soldered onto the motherboard.  You can see the distinction when you consider that there are parties replacing the cover glass, removing the Bayer filter, etc. The point was that the failure of the M9 sensor was not electronic but optical. 

This is getting silly.

[jaapv]

Taking the words out of my mouth...  

[tashley]

On 7/27/2023 at 6:08 PM, Beewacker said:

I’ve been a Leica owner since 1984 with the M4P. I then sold it and bought the LHSA M6 TTL which I still own and use.

I wanted to go digital so I waited until the full frame M9 came out. I loved it and kept it until I got tired of touching up all the defects in the defective CCD sensor.

Now bear in mind that I never received notification from Leica of the defects, even though the camera was registered, I had to read about in this forum. Leica gave me a credit towards the purchase of a M240. Not a free sensor, but a credit towards a new camera. It cost me several thousand to get the replacement M240.

My M240 was ripped off in Barcelona so I went back to using my M6TTL exclusively, so now I am considering a new M11 purchase.

Now I know everyone here is very sensitive when it comes to bringing up anything  negative about Leica, but I have to ask this question.

If you’ve seen that exploded view of the M11 on Leica’s website, aren’t you the least bit concerned about the longevity of some of those electronic components?

Past warranty, what will Leica charge to replace or repair any one of those items? Are these cameras built to give 20 years of performance with a minor lube job every once in a while?

Leica has always stood for the best of the best in cameras, will this camera live up to Leica’s storied reputation or will the simplest repair always be one-half the price of the latest camera?

For some reason this post, which I made earlier, has been deleted - so I will try again.

A cautionary tale: my M11 (new early last year) spent quite a while in Germany quite soon after I first got it, having a misaligned sensor fixed. I used it quite a bit on a trip last summer and not so much since then. This week I took it out to prepare for another trip and found that one of the segments in the red LED shutter speed indicator in the finder window has malfunctioned such that the central of the three number does not display correctly when showing certain numbers (2, 8, 0 though utterly inexplicable it can show the 6 in 0.6 so I have no idea what the problem is....) 

I took it to Leica Store Mayfair and they said that it would have to go to Germany and would take at least three months.

The number of times I have cursed Leica's unreliability and poor QC with both cameras and lenses, and vowed to exit the system for good, only to get suckered back in my that lovely look and feel and by the gorgeous images it helps me make, when it's all working! 

It's my own fault. But IMHO the company needs at least one of 

* Bullet proof manufacturing or

* A speedy repair system

They are nowhere near having either in my experience. So it's caveat emptor. But don't expect, when you buy Leica equipment, to be able to use it whenever you need. My experience - over years and years of many bodies and lenses - is that that will not happen. There are strong compensations of course.

 

 

[lct]

12 minutes ago, tashley said:

But don't expect, when you buy Leica equipment, to be able to use it whenever you need. My experience - over years and years of many bodies and lenses - is that that will not happen.

I share your disappointment of course but in my 50+ years experience, it always happened but one time in th eighties (M4-2 shutter issue).

[charlesphoto99]

My black paint M10-R is currently out for who knows how long to repair the back buttons not functioning over a certain ambient temp (take pics fine, just turns it into an M10-RD). Same camera had to go back to home base for a month straight out of the box for a misaligned rf. It happens, I know (because it did before to me) but it happens with far too much frequency imo for cameras/lenses that cost this much. I'm with @tashley above. Either Leica need to bulletproof their QC (not to mention beta testing), and/or find a way to turnaround in days or weeks, not months. 

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[Beewacker]

Well, there have been some interesting replies to my initial question of future M11 repairs.

If I remember correctly (I’m 69 years old 🙂 ) when I purchased my M4P (the P stood for Passport BTW), it came with a 3 year, NO QUESTIONS ASKED warranty. Leica had an ad that said, ‘drop it out of a helicopter, if you can get us all the parts, we’ll repair it for free’. I’m fuzzy on the next part but I believe it was something like a 2 week turn-around to get the camera returned. In either case, it was NOTHING like some of these repair times I’m reading about here.

Leica can and should do better with their QC and repair policies, they have no excuses.