M11 future repairs

[Beewacker]

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I’ve been a Leica owner since 1984 with the M4P. I then sold it and bought the LHSA M6 TTL which I still own and use.

I wanted to go digital so I waited until the full frame M9 came out. I loved it and kept it until I got tired of touching up all the defects in the defective CCD sensor.

Now bear in mind that I never received notification from Leica of the defects, even though the camera was registered, I had to read about in this forum. Leica gave me a credit towards the purchase of a M240. Not a free sensor, but a credit towards a new camera. It cost me several thousand to get the replacement M240.

My M240 was ripped off in Barcelona so I went back to using my M6TTL exclusively, so now I am considering a new M11 purchase.

Now I know everyone here is very sensitive when it comes to bringing up anything  negative about Leica, but I have to ask this question.

If you’ve seen that exploded view of the M11 on Leica’s website, aren’t you the least bit concerned about the longevity of some of those electronic components?

Past warranty, what will Leica charge to replace or repair any one of those items? Are these cameras built to give 20 years of performance with a minor lube job every once in a while?

Leica has always stood for the best of the best in cameras, will this camera live up to Leica’s storied reputation or will the simplest repair always be one-half the price of the latest camera?

[gotium]

Oh I definitely share your concerns. 

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[Al Brown]

My fully plastic Holga 120 with a tiny wire spring still works after 20+ years, it would be outright dumb to assume M11 would not. The oldest digital Leica is now 17 years old (M8 from 2006) and all is fine. Repair costs the same as any other digital M (first hand data), the only compromise is that you get the M9's shutter that "just" goes to 1/4000s.

1 hour ago, Beewacker said:

Leica has always stood for the best of the best in cameras

I beg to differ. Is Rolls Royce the best of the best in cars? Is Rolex the best of the best in watches? It is all marketing, what you are made to believe (I do marketing for a living besides photography). It surely is a great LUXURY brand, but luxury does NOT imply "best of the best" in the industry. Read the book Leica - Views of brand culture where it is explained in detail how the company undertook a gargantuan marketing effort to persuade people they are "alpha and omega".
Also, digital M Leicas are a mere shadow of what once was an incredibly sturdy and easily repairable camera during the Vietnam and other wars, all the way to the introduction of M7. Leica was so unpopular in 1975 it almost shut down and the same happened in 2000s before being "rescued" by Andreas Kaufmann.
Best of the best? No. Best of the luxury? Probably so.
 

Edited July 27 by Al Brown

[lct]

You sound like a traditional M user not interested in live view that much or at all. I may be wrong though but if not, i would go for an M10 instead. It won't be as sturdy as an M3 though but you know it already don't you

 

[dpitt]

20 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

My fully plastic Holga 120 with a tiny wire spring still works after 20+ years, it would be outright dumb to assume M11 would not. The oldest digital Leica is now 17 years old (M8 from 2006) and all is fine. Repair costs the same as any other digital M (first hand data), the only compromise is that you get the M9's shutter that "just" goes to 1/4000s.

I beg to differ. Is Rolls Royce the best of the best in cars? Is Rolex the best of the best in watches? It is all marketing, what you are made to believe (I do marketing for a living besides photography). It surely is a great LUXURY brand, but luxury does NOT imply "best of the best" in the industry. Read the book Leica - Views of brand culture where it is explained in detail how the company undertook a gargantuan marketing effort to persuade people they are "alpha and omega".
Also, digital M Leicas are a mere shadow of what once was an incredibly sturdy and easily repairable camera during the Vietnam and other wars, all the way to the introduction of M7. Leica was so unpopular in 1975 it almost shut down and the same happened in 2000s before being "rescued" by Andreas Kaufmann.
Best of the best? No. Best of the luxury? Probably so.
 

In the time of M8/M9 Leica stated their intention to support any digital M for 10 years after production launch (or was it production date?) I think they kept their promise, but some suppliers like Sony and Kodak did not. See coffee stain issue on back screen display of the M8 and sensor corrosion issues of the M9. I think Leica did a good job to compensate every owner of these products, even far out of warranty. I do not know any other manufacturer that would go so far as to replace any sensor for free for an out of warranty product (e.g. my M9 in 2016) for example. In today's world of very fast developments, 10 years is an eternity and still Leica managed to cope for the M8/M9. Expecting 20 years of service is a bit unrealistic, but my 20 years old Digilux 2 and DMR are still going strong. And my M8 and M9 are still fine too. All of these are kind of throw away products now, because buying an other used one would make more economical sense if something major fails now. I do not mind at all, but some people seem to expect modern camera's to last for ever, even if they are basically a computer with some mechanics now, and not the other way around. Would they expect their laptop to last for the same period?

I am curious what you would call best of the best in FF camera world? "Best" can mean a lot of things to people depending who you ask. Longevity, sharpness, color fidelity, advanced AF features,  durability, serviceability... What is it for you?

[Al Brown]

48 minutes ago, dpitt said:

I am curious what you would call best of the best in FF camera world? "Best" can mean a lot of things to people depending who you ask. Longevity, sharpness, color fidelity, advanced AF features,  durability, serviceability... What is it for you?

"Best" is when a product surpasses the sum of its part and becomes something more. Leica used that sentence in its marketing material and called the final product "Gestalt". For me, the best category medal is impossible to give because even now, in 2023, when all the cameras are truly great, we still do not have a perfect one, the one to tick all the boxes and rule them all. Canon EOS 1 series in its analog and digital form came *very* close to best in 35mm photography. I still have one from cca. 2007 (1Ds Mk.II) and can still hammer a nail in any wall with it, let alone photograph at 800 ISO with organic noise and amazing results. "Best" criteria also changes over time. Best to not use the word at all in connection with photo cameras as it is impossible to clearly determine the force that makes it so. (double sci-fi pun intended).

[IkarusJohn]

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For the price, I expect more.  But I agree that Leica (eventually) has stood by its products.

The challenge is Leica’s legacy of premium products for life.  I doubt Leica could have survived with just film cameras with no electronics that they could maintain and repair themselves. Their first metered cameras suffered from electronic failures, where M3, M2 & M4 cameras are still going strong.  The switch to digital was essential, but electronics don’t seem to offer the quality and longevity of the traditional Leica product.

That has put Leica into an odd place, out of its traditional approach of taking existing technologies and refining them (admittedly the coupled rangefinder of 1953).  We are now in the position of Leica’s cost base, with electronic componentry not made to the same standards.  As everyone says, computers are not made to last more than 10 years, whereas a Leica camera certainly is.  That puts us into luxury territory, and a camera like the M11.

When my M9 got corrosion, I persuaded Leica to do a trade I could live with for my M-A, vowing not to buy another digital M. I succumbed to the M10-D in a moment of weakness as the M10 seemed to be the perfect M digital.  Then it broke down …

I rather hope Leica goes back to thinking really carefully about the simplicity of what photographers need to make the most out of their lenses, rather than what might be possible, or what they say they want - return to the essence of photography, and make their cameras with the best components, with long term supply.

I suspect my M-A is in my future long term.

[Kwesi]

My Nikon Coolpix 900 from 23 years ago still works. I see no reason why my Leica M11 won't work in the year 2043.

The real question is will I prefer to use it over what is available from Leica and others in 2043?

 

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

My Nikon Coolpix 900 from 23 years ago still works. I see no reason why my Leica M11 won't work in the year 2043.

The real question is will I prefer to use it over what is available from Leica and others in 2043?

 

That would be a triumph of hope over experience - my experience, anyway.

[lct]

I took this photo of my daughter and her friends with a 4MP Digilux1 20 years ago. In 20 years time, my daughter will be 50 and i'm not sure my grandchildren will look better with my supposedly sturdy M11 or a new M15 or M16 if ever i don't push daisies by then. No camera can make up for lost time alas... Carpe diem folks

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[jaapv]

And my Digilux 2 is still working like it did the day I unboxed it... Even the batteries.

[colint544]

Friend of mine has a Canon Powershot G7 he's had since 2006. He uses it all the time, and it just soldiers on.

[jdlaing]

5 hours ago, colint544 said:

Friend of mine has a Canon Powershot G7 he's had since 2006. He uses it all the time, and it just soldiers on.

Same here with an Olympus E1. 2003.

[mediumformula]

Took my 2 megapixel Canon Elf from 2004 to Italy last month and it was great.

[adan]

Bottom line - I do not expect to get more than 10 years maximum out of any digital camera. I may get more - but I do not count on it.

Fortunately, I know that I will get 10 years of pictures without paying for 10 years of film, by using a digital camera. Which comes to savings far larger than the price of even Leica digital Ms.

When I choose a camera, I am not looking for "a friend for life." I am in the Donald McCullin camp - "I only use a camera the way I use a toothbrush. It does the job."

But for the 10 years they will - on average - last, I'm willing to pay the Leica price of US$650-1000 per year per camera (minus any residual value, and at least 10 years income from the photos). "It does the job" in the way with which I am most comfortable.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, adan said:

I do not expect to get more than 10 years maximum out of any digital camera

I do - My daily users are  my new to me SL 601, M9 and Monochrom 1. The "newer" CL is a backup camera and the TL the carry- everywhere. I do not anticipate any electronic trouble beyond the turn of the decade - I have rarely experienced an electronic breakdown on a digital camera in over twenty years, nor on - for instance - HiFi equipment for far longer, and any I had were not age-related. 
My feeling is that electronics are far more ageing-resistant than mechanical parts.

The main reason for replacing digital cameras is the user - he lets the feeling that he is left behind overwhelm the objective results he is getting. Not breakdowns.  

[IkarusJohn]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I do - My daily users are  my new to me SL 601, M9 and Monochrom 1. The "newer" CL is a backup camera and the TL the carry- everywhere. I do not anticipate any electronic trouble beyond the turn of the decade - I have rarely experienced an electronic breakdown on a digital camera in over twenty years, nor on - for instance - HiFi equipment for far longer, and any I had were not age-related. 
My feeling is that electronics are far more ageing-resistant than mechanical parts.

The main reason for replacing digital cameras is the user - he lets the feeling that he is left behind overwhelm the objective results he is getting. Not breakdowns.  

No corrosion on your M9 or Monochrom?

[lct]

39 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The main reason for replacing digital cameras is the user - he lets the feeling that he is left behind overwhelm the objective results he is getting. Not breakdowns.

Not breakdowns admittedly but technology evolves and it plays on results, at least for me. I have kept my M240 for instance but i use it less and less as i take better pics with the M11 so long as i don't need slow shutter speeds handheld. An M12 with IBIS would interest me for the same reason.

[jaapv]

Sensors replaced, obviously.

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[jaapv]

23 minutes ago, lct said:

Not breakdowns admittedly but technology evolves and it plays on results, at least for me. I have kept my M240 for instance but i use it less and less as i take better pics with the M11 so long as i don't need slow shutter speeds handheld. An M12 with IBIS would interest me for the same reason.

I'm not good enough for that. My images depend on my skill or lack thereof, the precise camera body is rather immaterial. Some of my best shots are with the DMR.

As you proved yourself with your Digilux1 shot.