So would you rather have one M11 or 2 M10-R?

[Olaf_ZG]

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I am already very great full having only one m10m….

[IkarusJohn]

17 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm fairly sure that the M8, M9, and M10s all built their firmware about a set of distinct chips that each did one job -- manage the charging, handle the WiFi, process the image from the chip into the buffer, move it from the buffer to the SDcard, etc.  These were the signal processing substrates of an older generation of equipment.  With the M11, there is a leap to an Arm microprocessor in an SOC ("system on a chip") which offers multiple cores, operating in parallel to do everything.  The good side of this is that there is a huge market supporting these designs, so they can offer the latest, fastest circuits and have fast macros for the most important functions.  The bad side is that all of the software gets rewritten.  Many of the coders responsible for the original functions may have gone on to other jobs, most of them may be in contract firms that are not in Wetzlar.  And since some of the speedup comes from having more things running in parallel, it takes a while to find out how to make the tasks always keep each other fully informed and consistent.  Cameras freezing probably means that some function is waiting for a "done" signal from some other function that sent it long ago, or doesn't know that it is expected.  That's why we are at release 1.6.xx already.  Leica has done a great job making the menu interfaces of all their first-rank cameras as consistent as possible, but there are hard problems in layers further down, and it takes time for the bugs to surface.

Doesn’t that explain rather a lot about the latest version of whatever it is that you may contemplate buying, whether it’s the processor, the sensor, the battery or anything else?

For me, it remains about photography.  The M9 was great, but had its challenges.  The M(240) addressed some of those challenges, but brought in other problems.  The M10 was the camera that the M9 wanted to be.

Apart from being shiny, new and the latest, what does the M11 actually offer for photography?  It’s a serious question.  I know that Gordon, and perhaps you Scott, likes the multi-field metering off the sensor.  That wouldn’t encourage me to upgrade; nor would improved EVF, as I don’t use it that often.  Better dynamic range would (at the cost of more MP).

The only thing that attracts me about the M11 is the loss of the baseplate (long overdue) and USB-C (very convenient, though it sounds like it has its own issues).  A new processor is good to know, but seems to be at the core of the camera’s problems.  

My M10-D is not under threat at this stage …

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Doesn’t that explain rather a lot about the latest version of whatever it is that you may contemplate buying, whether it’s the processor, the sensor, the battery or anything else?

For me, it remains about photography.  The M9 was great, but had its challenges.  The M(240) addressed some of those challenges, but brought in other problems.  The M10 was the camera that the M9 wanted to be.

Apart from being shiny, new and the latest, what does the M11 actually offer for photography?  It’s a serious question.  I know that Gordon, and perhaps you Scott, likes the multi-field metering off the sensor.  That wouldn’t encourage me to upgrade; nor would improved EVF, as I don’t use it that often.  Better dynamic range would (at the cost of more MP).

The only thing that attracts me about the M11 is the loss of the baseplate (long overdue) and USB-C (very convenient, though it sounds like it has its own issues).  A new processor is good to know, but seems to be at the core of the camera’s problems.  

My M10-D is not under threat at this stage …

Add: Internal memory, much better battery, significantly lighter, better EVF experience, better IQ (to me - better highlight recovery, better color, better file overall) 

while none of this is earth shattering, it adds up to a nice upgrade.

I much prefer over M10 variants but they are still fantastic cameras and wouldn’t criticize anyone for not upgrading but I think most people that do, will enjoy the M11. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by dkmoore

[lct]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

[...] what does the M11 actually offer for photography?  It’s a serious question.  I know that Gordon, and perhaps you Scott, likes the multi-field metering off the sensor.  That wouldn’t encourage me to upgrade; nor would improved EVF, as I don’t use it that often. [...]

Better abstain if you need some courage to upgrade as M10 cameras are probably the best option for traditional M users but if you want to ally legacy with modernity you may consider the wider compatibility of BSI sensors preventing red edge and other color shift issues with symmetrical lenses like Biogons or Super-Angulons if you like that.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Better abstain if you need some courage to upgrade as M10 cameras are probably the best option for traditional M users but if you want to ally legacy with modernity you may consider the wider compatibility of BSI sensors preventing red edge and other color shift issues with symmetrical lenses like Biogons or Super-Angulons if you like that.

Not sure courage is the issue …

I agree that the BSI sensor and internal memory are appealing; that’s why I’m looking at an X2D.  

[scott kirkpatrick]

7 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Doesn’t that explain rather a lot about the latest version of whatever it is that you may contemplate buying, whether it’s the processor, the sensor, the battery or anything else?

For me, it remains about photography.  The M9 was great, but had its challenges.  The M(240) addressed some of those challenges, but brought in other problems.  The M10 was the camera that the M9 wanted to be.

Apart from being shiny, new and the latest, what does the M11 actually offer for photography?  It’s a serious question.  I know that Gordon, and perhaps you Scott, likes the multi-field metering off the sensor.  That wouldn’t encourage me to upgrade; nor would improved EVF, as I don’t use it that often.  Better dynamic range would (at the cost of more MP).

The only thing that attracts me about the M11 is the loss of the baseplate (long overdue) and USB-C (very convenient, though it sounds like it has its own issues).  A new processor is good to know, but seems to be at the core of the camera’s problems.  

My M10-D is not under threat at this stage …

The step from one version to the next was smaller in the past than the step up from the M10s to the M11.  My M11 handles faster and its VF2 with the possibility of magnification is great for supporting accurate work with 28, 24, 21 and 18 mm lenses, which I do use.  The dynamic range of the BSI sensor does seem much better than the previous generation, so the answer most of the time to tricky exposure situations is just to use center-weighted and under-expose enough to be safe.  So the M11 puts the M10-R to shame when I compare the two.  The M10-D, on the other hand, doesn't try to do everything, and does what it is meant for very well.  It will be around a few years from now, while the 10-R will probably go off as a down payment for my next APO lens or an M12.

[lct]

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure courage is the issue …

I agree that the BSI sensor and internal memory are appealing; that’s why I’m looking at an X2D.  

So you prefer a pure mirrorless camera (X2D) to a rangefinder with mirrorless capabilities (M11) if i follow you well. Makes sense, some M users would like an EVF-M for the same reason i guess but why comparing the M11 to M10 cameras with inferior mirrorless capabilities then? 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, lct said:

So you prefer a pure mirrorless camera (X2D) to a rangefinder with mirrorless capabilities (M11) if i follow you well. Makes sense, some M users would like an EVF-M for the same reason i guess but why comparing the M11 to M10 cameras with inferior mirrorless capabilities then? 

No, I didn’t say that at all.  I like my M cameras (I have three, and a dozen or so lenses I’m also very fond of).  The fact I dislike the M11 doesn’t mean I don’t like a rangefinder …

In order of preference?  Not sure I can do that.  My M-A is a lifetime keeper.  My Monochrom will be kept alive as long as possible, and possibly replaced with the next Monochrom which won’t follow the cul de sac of the M11 (I’m hoping, but I’ll hold out).  The M10-D will be kept alive as long as possible, and is unlikely to be replaced by another colour digital M.  The digital M system and I are likely to part company when my current digital Ms can no longer be repaired (perhaps that will never happen), if there is no Monochrom that suits me.

Why is the M11 not for me?  I think we’ve covered that.

My SL functions well as a colour digital mount for my M lenses. But, I won’t replace that.  I’ve never really liked zooms (though they’re convenient) and I don’t need telephotos enough to maintain a system just for that (I sold my Nikon D800e for that reason).

Long term, my M-A will see me out, and I see no need to replace or add to my M lenses - I have more than I need.  For digital, it will almost certainly be the X2D and its successor.

Why?  Interestingly, it seems to have a larger version of the same sensor that’s in the M11, but I prefer medium format, and the X2D implementation suits my needs better than where the M11 seems to be taking the M system.  I can’t say it’s my first choice, but it is what it is.

The M system has always been for me a return to what I need for photography, and nothing more.  The M11 doesn’t go in that direction, even if it did not seem to be plagued with problems.  I’ve coped with problems - they don’t bother me if the system is heading in the right direction.  I wouldn’t be bothered with an EVF based M, though I do like the rangefinder in the M configuration.

Edited August 2, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[jakontil]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:57 AM, IkarusJohn said:

Doesn’t that explain rather a lot about the latest version of whatever it is that you may contemplate buying, whether it’s the processor, the sensor, the battery or anything else?

For me, it remains about photography.  The M9 was great, but had its challenges.  The M(240) addressed some of those challenges, but brought in other problems.  The M10 was the camera that the M9 wanted to be.

Apart from being shiny, new and the latest, what does the M11 actually offer for photography?  It’s a serious question.  I know that Gordon, and perhaps you Scott, likes the multi-field metering off the sensor.  That wouldn’t encourage me to upgrade; nor would improved EVF, as I don’t use it that often.  Better dynamic range would (at the cost of more MP).

The only thing that attracts me about the M11 is the loss of the baseplate (long overdue) and USB-C (very convenient, though it sounds like it has its own issues).  A new processor is good to know, but seems to be at the core of the camera’s problems.  

My M10-D is not under threat at this stage …

I tend to agree, for my use case scenario, probably usb c and battery is the obvious advantage over my M10r, and i dont mind the baseplate, i would still happily use my m10D if ever never let go

the usb c has been the solid performance though

[otto.f]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:28 PM, thrid said:

you can probably pick up two of them

Really? Not in Europe

[costa43]

I just recently picked up an m10r and apo35 ‘cron. My main reason for not going for the m11 was that it just felt a little too ‘mirrorless’ more like it’s SL and Q cousins than previous bodies. I preferred the m10r with its simpler shutter and nostalgic bottom plate. I would take the two m10r bodies, one with a 35mm and one with a 75mm attached. 😃

[Tailwagger]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:35 AM, costa43 said:

I preferred the m10r with its simpler shutter

Bit of a misnomer.  In LV, the 10-R (and 10 and 240 before it) behaves in the same way as the 11. The primary difference between the M11 and the previous generations that supported LV is its loss of reflective metering which forces the M11 to always...rather than selectively...  hold the shutter open to perform metering. Throw any of those other cameras into LV and they do the same thing, just not quite (to nowhere near) as well.  For many this is the crucial change that has them holding on to their 10s as they fail to find, the improvements to battery, sensor, CPU, etc not enough to compel them to give up their current approach.  Not my choice, but I get it.  Regardless, there are any number of subjective and objective reasons to prefer one over the other. 

I'm rather weary of all the right vs wrong arguing on this front; somewhat why I've reduced my visits to these pages of late. That said, I do find it rather amusing that it took the M11 intro for the 10-R to finally gain a more rabid following. As an early adopter of both cameras, I recall vividly all the bile heaped on 10-R when it was introduced.  Quite similar in volume, if not details to the reaction to the M11.  All that nonsense around the loss of aesthetics brought about by the move to 40 MPx, among other things.

I still have my R, but its rarely used these days and really is only kept as a back up at this point.  For my set of use cases, the M11 is the superior camera.  But for those more comfortable with the R brief, stick with it.  It's hard to make good images with a camera you don't truly care for, regardless of whether one's distaste is based on real world use or simply the perceived loss of tradition.

 

[junix]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:10 PM, Pierre68 said:

Everything is in the title:  would you rather have one M11 or 2 M10-R?

Your question.

On 7/25/2023 at 11:27 PM, Pierre68 said:

Well I currently have 2 M10-R bodies (3 if you count M10-M) and I really like the possibility to have different lenses mounted on the different bodies. It makes swapping from one focal length to another so easy that you do not have to wonder if you would change the lens or not... Add to that the possibility to do monochrome when suited. The M11 will never offer this flexibility.

Your answer. 

But if I was you, I would go with one M11 as I don’t like swapping lenses when I’m out and about.

[costa43]

4 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Bit of a misnomer.  In LV, the 10-R (and 10 and 240 before it) behaves in the same way as the 11. The primary difference between the M11 and the previous generations that supported LV is its loss of reflective metering which forces the M11 to always...rather than selectively...  hold the shutter open to perform metering. Throw any of those other cameras into LV and they do the same thing, just not quite (to nowhere near) as well.  For many this is the crucial change that has them holding on to their 10s as they fail to find, the improvements to battery, sensor, CPU, etc not enough to compel them to give up their current approach.  Not my choice, but I get it.  Regardless, there are any number of subjective and objective reasons to prefer one over the other. 

I'm rather weary of all the right vs wrong arguing on this front; somewhat why I've reduced my visits to these pages of late. That said, I do find it rather amusing that it took the M11 intro for the 10-R to finally gain a more rabid following. As an early adopter of both cameras, I recall vividly all the bile heaped on 10-R when it was introduced.  Quite similar in volume, if not details to the reaction to the M11.  All that nonsense around the loss of aesthetics brought about by the move to 40 MPx, among other things.

I still have my R, but its rarely used these days and really is only kept as a back up at this point.  For my set of use cases, the M11 is the superior camera.  But for those more comfortable with the R brief, stick with it.  It's hard to make good images with a camera you don't truly care for, regardless of whether one's distaste is based on real world use or simply the perceived loss of tradition.

 

Thank you for your detailed response, I totally agree with everything you said, your last paragraph sums things up very nicely too.
 

In my case, I picked up both cameras, played around with them for a bit and preferred the m10r so I went for that one. I’m just a hobbyist so the output is not so critical for me. Looking back at all the M releases from Leica, it seems it is quite common for previous models to gain ‘cult’ followings when new ones are released, even if on their release, there was negativity. People may want/need that validation and I’m making an assumption the price comes into play too. 

[budjames]

M11, absolutely!

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[LBJ2]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:03 PM, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm fairly sure that the M8, M9, and M10s all built their firmware about a set of distinct chips that each did one job -- manage the charging, handle the WiFi, process the image from the chip into the buffer, move it from the buffer to the SDcard, etc.  These were the signal processing substrates of an older generation of equipment.  With the M11, there is a leap to an Arm microprocessor in an SOC ("system on a chip") which offers multiple cores, operating in parallel to do everything.  The good side of this is that there is a huge market supporting these designs, so they can offer the latest, fastest circuits and have fast macros for the most important functions.  The bad side is that all of the software gets rewritten.  Many of the coders responsible for the original functions may have gone on to other jobs, most of them may be in contract firms that are not in Wetzlar.  And since some of the speedup comes from having more things running in parallel, it takes a while to find out how to make the tasks always keep each other fully informed and consistent.  Cameras freezing probably means that some function is waiting for a "done" signal from some other function that sent it long ago, or doesn't know that it is expected.  That's why we are at release 1.6.xx already.  Leica has done a great job making the menu interfaces of all their first-rank cameras as consistent as possible, but there are hard problems in layers further down, and it takes time for the bugs to surface.

Interesting and plausible explanation. What are your thoughts about the inconsistencies ? Clearly there is an issue as we've seen the attempts to fix via firmware, but also there are many that do not experience repeated camera lockups using the very same firmware. 

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

7 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Interesting and plausible explanation. What are your thoughts about the inconsistencies ? Clearly there is an issue as we've seen the attempts to fix via firmware, but also there are many that do not experience repeated camera lockups using the very same firmware. 

 

That's why beta tests are really valuable.  Adobe and Capture One get 1000s of people to try their next generation of products.  And with this many amateur testers you find pathways through the sequences of operations or operation speeds that would never occur to the good engineers who put the product together.  It's much easier to do this with software than an unreleased camera.  I helped with one of these steps a while back, but my test unit only got through customs about the time of the announcement.  At least beta testing  new firmware can involve more people because distributing firmware doesn't require large cardboard boxes of stuff.

[DadDadDaddyo]

The M10M was absolutely a breakthrough body for me, and immediately a keeper. It would truly be enough for what remains of a lifetime in photography. 

But I added an M11 with the desire to match my SL2, wonderful as it and its lenses are, to pull the rangefinder side of my collection into equilibrium with the mirrorless side in terms of color and the various benefits of resolution. 

Then I added an M11M. This was a tougher decision than adding the M11, given the level of satisfaction I've enjoyed with the M10M. 

So as of now I still have the M10M, but also the M11 and the M11M. This has led to a few surprising outcomes. 

First, with the availability of the M11M, my day-in day-out use of the M10M has simply dropped to zero. I'm finding in practice the M11M exacts no penalties in use sufficient for me to reach for the M10M, given access to both. And, the benefits of its availability, especially in combination with the M11, are equivalent to those offered by the pairing of the M10-R and the M10M (such as using the same battery). 

Those advantages almost led me to buy an M10-R rather than an M11. Truthfully, I think I'd have been happily satisfied either way. 

But as I've noted elsewhere, the move to the M11 series led to the surprise outcome of my making the decision to close out of the Fujifilm GFX system that I had been using for several years. At the print sizes I produce at home on 24 inch paper, the M11 and M11M easily surpass my requirements, and they do so while giving me a Leica rangefinder in hand, rather than what I find to be the less visceral experience of shooting with a mirrorless body with electronic viewfinder. 

To this day, whenever folks ask here about the worthiness oofa precious model (the M246 for example) in the present time, I'll vigorously assert its merits. Any of the Monochroms are an absolute boon to someone who's committed to the monochrome way of image making. 

So. There are solid arguments (or at least,  possibly arguable justifications) for having two bodies of the same series, either the M10-R and M10M, or the M11 and M11M. 

But I can't justify holding on to the M10M now that I'm using the M11 and M11M...

Sheesh! Talk about First World issues...

Edited August 10, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[Guest]

Of course I'd rather have two M10-Rs than one M11. One for each of my residences.

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[Sandokan]

Actually, I do not understand the original question? Why is there a choice between two of one and one of another? It is a “greenfield” question as no constraints and its a choice of buying two or one camera. Difference in cost for having two of the same for both choices is about 25% and for that differential i would just save a few more months and buy two M11s if I felt it was superior to M10R for me. 

OTOH - many of the debates here are about the differences between a M11 and M10 R. 

I was happy with my M10M but wanted a colour M … and the 24MP version is still a better camera than i am a photographer so that is what i bought cheaply from someone upgrading. 

No lust to upgrade to M11, or M12 when it comes out. Same reason why I am still using my SL and have no wish to have SL2 or pine for the SL3.