M11 Motion blur is driving me crazy(!)

[jaapv]

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Another question: what sharpness can we expect from an older Summilux 35 at the image edge wide open scrutinized @ 100% on a 60 MP 135 format camera? 

[wijsbroek]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

Another question: what sharpness can we expect from an older Summilux 35 at the image edge wide open scrutinized @ 100% on a 60 MP 135 format camera? 

Good point, I just didn't consider it as an old lens. 😅

And again, I don't think (the problem is that) it's unsharp. 

[jaapv]

The point is that even the best rangefinder lenses will inevitably struggle at edges and corners due to the size restrictions imposed by the viewfinder geometry, especially at wider angles. 

[Jeff S]

Stop pixel peeping; make prints.  Jaap’s first reply in post #2 just about covers it.  For the longer version, there are already multiple, long, discussions.

Jeff

[wijsbroek]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The point is that even the best rangefinder lenses will inevitably struggle at edges and corners due to the size restrictions imposed by the viewfinder geometry, especially at wider angles. 

Well I guess that must be it. Either way, thank you for your time!

[wijsbroek]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Stop pixel peeping; make prints.  Jaap’s first reply in post #2 just about covers it.  For the longer version, there are already multiple, long, discussions.

Jeff

You are right. I normally never pixel peep, I just couldn't explain the result.

[charlesphoto99]

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42 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Ohhh I'm so sorry, I did not know I had to post brilliant photos first before I could show a TEST shot. 

But thanks so much for your constructive help! Enjoy your day.🤐

You don’t. But post a lousy test shot and expect lousy answers. IMO it has nothing to do with camera shake, and all to do with it being 1.4 and focusing technique, and/or a poor subject for testing at 1.4. Could be the lens is slightly out of calibration as well, or de-centered. Lots of variables when shooting at extremes like this with an M. 

[wijsbroek]

37 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

You don’t. But post a lousy test shot and expect lousy answers. IMO it has nothing to do with camera shake, and all to do with it being 1.4 and focusing technique, and/or a poor subject for testing at 1.4. Could be the lens is slightly out of calibration as well, or de-centered. Lots of variables when shooting at extremes like this with an M. 

I really can't see why this is a lousy test shot... please explain. I'm serious, maybe I can learn something from it. 

I might let the lens to be checked, but first I wanted to ask if there's something I was missing. Thanks for your suggestions.

[jaapv]

45 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

You don’t. But post a lousy test shot and expect lousy answers. IMO it has nothing to do with camera shake, and all to do with it being 1.4 and focusing technique, and/or a poor subject for testing at 1.4. Could be the lens is slightly out of calibration as well, or de-centered. Lots of variables when shooting at extremes like this with an M. 

Thank you for calling my answer lousy… 😃

[Guest]

4 hours ago, wijsbroek said:

Hi everyone, 

Photography has been my love for over 30 years now. I've owned a lot of camera's (film and digital). I recently switched from medium format Fujifilm (GFX-50r, which was big and heavy like a brick) to Leica M11. A dream came true. I love everything about the camera except two things. First is dust on the sensor. I only use one lens and never take it of. Still there's more and more dust on the sensor over time. Is this normal? Isn't the camera sealed?

But my GREAT problem is... motion blur. I've never experienced it this way. I know it's said to be a resolution thing, but coming from 50MP medium format, I was quite used to high resolution and never experienced these kind of problems.

I'm using a new Summilux 35/1.4 (not the newest, close range focussing version, but the previous). I'm having most problems shooting (almost) wide open. It's nearly impossible to take a non-motion-blurred shot. It's not focussing, That looks okay from a distance. But zooming in... everything has motion blur (or something else?). Even at 1/6500s...

Of course I have been practising a lot with the M11. Please look at this test shot. Looks okay, but then... when you zoom in... I know, I know this is an extreme close-up, but still I was used to a quite sharp (motion free) part of the picture, using bij GFX camera. I do not pixel peep at all!

I really hope someone can give me the golden tip. It's driving me crazy and I'm thinking about selling my dream camera. This really makes me sad.

Leica M11
ISO 64
1/6500s
F/1.4
Processed in Capture one (used Light too, no difference).

Thank you in advance!

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I would over-sharpen the image for analysis. It appears that in this case the center of the plane of focus is in front of the arrow, and perhaps outside of the captured image area (certainly not within the magnified part that you shared).

I don't know if the electronic shutter leads to image quality loss with the M11 - in other cameras I have experienced e.g. degraded bokeh quality and other issues, besides the well known 'rolling shutter'. This is something I would try both on and off.

My recommendation: Evaluate different focus aids (e.g. are you zooming in on the Liveview/EVF image, and by how much?). In time, as you are getting accustomed to the camera, you will less depend on those. This is especially true if you stick to one lens for a while. Again: Sharpening the image will give you a better understanding of performance.

One more thing: In practice, and even after more practice, one of your biggest enemies regarding intended sharpness may turn out to be field curvature. Some Leica lenses do not prioritize optimization in that regard (e.g. exhibit degrees of mustache distortion, ...). Also, esp. with FLE lenses, like the two most recent 35mm Summiluxes, there will be a difference in how the lens behaves at near/mid/far distance - you could call that 'dual personalities'.

Edited May 12, 2023 by mzbe

[dugby]

If the 35mm lens you are using, you refer to as the previous ASPH, aka FLE.  I also use this lens.

There was some reports about unusual focus outcomes with this lens, eg

https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog/2013/4/leica-m-240-with-35mm-f1-4-fle---some-observations

Further there were lively discussions on this LUF forum about the above.

 

Not sure whether this is manifesting itself with your M11 scenario…

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dugby said:

If the 35mm lens you are using, you refer to as the previous ASPH, aka FLE.  I also use this lens.

There was some reports about unusual focus outcomes with this lens, eg

https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog/2013/4/leica-m-240-with-35mm-f1-4-fle---some-observations

Further there were lively discussions on this LUF forum about the above.

 

Not sure whether this is manifesting itself with your M11 scenario…

Spot on -- this would still not impact verified focus on a single small area (e.g. via zoomed in EVF) -- you should always be able to achieve that. It's only the distorted plane of focus and resulting impact on other parts of the image where this would surface.

[wijsbroek]

16 minutes ago, mzbe said:

I would over-sharpen the image for analysis. It appears that in this case the center of the plane of focus is in front of the arrow, and perhaps outside of the captured image area (certainly not within the magnified part that you shared).

I don't know if the electronic shutter leads to image quality loss with the M11 - in other cameras I have experienced e.g. degraded bokeh quality and other issues, besides the well known 'rolling shutter'. This is something I would try both on and off.

My recommendation: Evaluate different focus aids (e.g. are you zooming in on the Liveview/EVF image, and by how much?). In time, as you are getting accustomed to the camera, you will less depend on those. This is especially true if you stick to one lens for a while. Again: Sharpening the image will give you a better understanding of performance.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks for your advice. I've over-sharpen it. I'm quite sure it has some 'micro' shake, in stead of a focus problem. I normally use the mechanical shutter; same problem. I have some good shots too at f/1.4.

When I use the EVF I zoom in at the max (10x?). I'm sure I will get to know the camera and lens better over time. This helps!

[LocalHero1953]

I don't see any motion blur or camera shake in this image either, but I do see focus blur, and that the point of focus is at or closer to us than the tip of the arrow.

You don't say where you have focused, other than on the arrow. Where on the arrow did you focus?

I think you need a better test shot, where you have enough detail across the image to see exactly where it is in focus. (Though anyone criticising you for not posting a great photograph deserves the push back you gave them.) Pick a slatted fence or a brick wall, mark a target on it (just to identify where to focus), and photograph it at an angle. (Don't focus and recompose, because that leads to problems with focus plane shift - place your target in the focus patch for shooting.) You can then see if the rangefinder or (less likely) the lens need recalibration.

Edit. I see you say you used the EVF not rangefinder. I still think you need to use a better test shot to see if you are actually focusing where you think you are.

Edited May 12, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Thanks for your advice. I've over-sharpen it. I'm quite sure it has some 'micro' shake, in stead of a focus problem. I normally use the mechanical shutter; same problem. I have some good shots too at f/1.4.

When I use the EVF I zoom in at the max (10x?). I'm sure I will get to know the camera and lens better over time. This helps!

One more thing - the 0.7m minimum focus distance sucks. It is easy to underestimate that you have to move a bit further back. I experienced this when I transitioned to Leica from other digital cameras. Doing more forensics on the image you shared, this would manifest itself as everything getting sharper towards the bottom. The actual sharpest part may not even be inside the frame = you are too close.

There's a reason why Leica is starting to introduce updated versions of the lenses that go up to 0.3-0.4m ...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[wijsbroek]

17 minutes ago, dugby said:

If the 35mm lens you are using, you refer to as the previous ASPH, aka FLE.  I also use this lens.

There was some reports about unusual focus outcomes with this lens, eg

https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog/2013/4/leica-m-240-with-35mm-f1-4-fle---some-observations

Further there were lively discussions on this LUF forum about the above.

 

Not sure whether this is manifesting itself with your M11 scenario…

Thanks, I'm curious if it's the lens. Since I'm broke after buying the M11 and Summilux, I will have to wait a little while for another one 🙂

[charlesphoto99]

37 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Thank you for calling my answer lousy… 😃

Well, mine was probably lousier! 

[jaapv]

4 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

Thanks, I'm curious if it's the lens. Since I'm broke after buying the M11 and Summilux, I will have to wait a little while for another one 🙂

You don't need another (well, you G.A.S. infection will probably drive you to acquire a fleet of lenses  ) because the lens you have is more than excellent for taking images.

[wijsbroek]

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You don't need another (well, you G.A.S. infection will probably drive you to acquire a fleet of lenses  ) because the lens you have is more than excellent for taking images.

I just need one 50mm, I told my wife 🙂

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[charlesphoto99]

3 minutes ago, wijsbroek said:

I just need one 50mm, I told my wife 🙂

50 is pretty darn close to 35. You may want to consider a 75 or 90 first as a second lens. Or something wider.