M11 or M11 Monochrome ?

[fenykepesz]

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you are raising here interesting questions !

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Derbyshire Man:

When I used SLRs & B&W film I often used a red filter to give a monochrome image via the viewfinder rather than contrast reasons.

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

Good point: You might want to use filters with B&W camera. Not needed for M11.

that's for me for many many years the million €/$ question for the process in how to create b&w pictures : global vs focal color-to-gray conversion ? that's desaturation or b&w filters for example, versus something that works more locally, pixel by pixel...

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[MatthiasE]

21 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Currently I have a Q2Mono and M11-P. I love the Q2M, happy with 28mm focal length, combined with f1.7 it produces interesting shots. It's also a low light monster due to being mono, f1.7 and lens stabilisation. I'm about 95% mono and have produced plenty of mono shots with my M11-P that I'm really happy with.

I considered M11M rather than M11-P but for me, I value seeing the image in B&W while photographing, yes I can imagine what it will look like but I prefer to see it. When I used SLRs & B&W film I often used a red filter to give a monochrome image via the viewfinder rather than contrast reasons.

I think the only thing that would tempt me is a M12M-evf version, I really love the optical rangefinder for the colour camera but I'd happily swap to Q2M EVF or better for an M sized B&W specialist camera. My guess is the market for a camera like that is tiny so I have very little expectation of ever seeing one.

Before you ask, I have a visoflex; it's ugly and doesn't fit well in the bag mounted, these are just my views and I don't seek to impose them on anyone!

In summary though a Q2M and M11-P is a dream combination as it is!

I’m currently thinking to go for the same combo: M11-P and Q2M… The only thing making me doubt is the fixed lens of the Q2M… I have the Leica M-A and shoot primarily B&W film, so an digital Mono would be very welcome. 

[jaapv]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:19 AM, hdmesa said:

I know this is a late response, but I think it may be helpful to others in the same situation:

Having owned both but only currently have the M11M:

M11:

• Can more easily get a darker/blacker sky with the b&w color sliders compared to a monochrome sensor.
• Heavy use of the blue/cyan sliders to get a black sky can leave an ugly glow at the horizon and/or unnatural-looking clouds, requiring masking, which gives mixed results.
• Recommend using a linear (dial in the strength by rotating) or circular polarizer (same but have to watch the angle of effect) to pre-darken skies and increase color saturation in anticipation of altering the color sliders later in post. This can greatly help overcome the previous issue and horizon glow artifact.
• Can add a nice punch of contrast where none exists by lightening yellow-orange-red sliders, which lightens dirt/gravel/flowers/objects in the image. This to me is the biggest benefit of the color conversion versus monochrome because it can make the land in the landscape pop at a very small detail level.

M11M:

• Can be difficult to get a fully black sky without a dark red filter and a perfectly dark blue sky.
• Red filter drawbacks are loss of dynamic range, loss of detail in the shadows, and longer exposure times and/or higher ISO (same difficulty that red filters cause with film).
• Darker skies derived from orange or red filtration may look more natural than black skies produces from color files, especially when it comes to cloud detail.
• Impervious to noise at extremely high ISOs. I recently shot with a light red filter and f/8-f/16, and the ISO went very high (handheld shooting); however, the resulting images had no more noise than low ISO images from the M11.

If your goal is to replicate the black sky effect of deep red color filtration on b&w film, I would go for the M11 over the M11M. If you want a more natural look and/or can use the high ISO benefits of the M11M, then I would go that route.

 

If your goal is dark high-contrast skies the best way to go about it is to use a pol filter regardless of colour or B&W. 

[satijntje]

Am 17.1.2024 um 14:23 schrieb M11 for me:

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Am I the only one here who cannot tell which pic is coming from which camera?

[Steadimann]

it's hard to tell in such type pictures especially when they are presented on web, compressed. That is the reason why I wanted to have a direct comparison of the same portrait in controlled environment, full size raw file. I had Q2M and have M11P but it wasn't exact sensor to compare. There are differences but I would like to see them on a portrait. Seems like I will have to get my hands on M11M somehow and make some tests  

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, MatthiasE said:

I’m currently thinking to go for the same combo: M11-P and Q2M… The only thing making me doubt is the fixed lens of the Q2M… I have the Leica M-A and shoot primarily B&W film, so an digital Mono would be very welcome. 

If money was no object I think I'd have an M11M and M11-P. However money is an object and even Q2M & M11-P (plus lenses) is bonkers enough. I find the 28mm much more flexible than I thought I would. I tilt towards landscape and environmental portraiture in available light so the Q2M really suits me. When I want to go longer in monochrome there's the M11-P and with 60mp and a trip through silver efex no matter what the light level it's always going to have natively less grain than tri-x 400 let alone tmax 3200! The Q2M was second hand and a good price, the saving is worth the lack of perfection & opportunity cost.

If I ever float an AI company on the stockmarket I reserve the right to change my decision.

[Derbyshire Man]

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24 minutes ago, Steadimann said:

it's hard to tell in such type pictures especially when they are presented on web, compressed. That is the reason why I wanted to have a direct comparison of the same portrait in controlled environment, full size raw file. I had Q2M and have M11P but it wasn't exact sensor to compare. There are differences but I would like to see them on a portrait. Seems like I will have to get my hands on M11M somehow and make some tests  

In the UK Leica are doing a scheme to borrow a M11M for 48 hours sent by courier. I deleted the email as fast as I could.

[Steadimann]

30 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

In the UK Leica are doing a scheme to borrow a M11M for 48 hours sent by courier. I deleted the email as fast as I could.

 I'm trying to resist the urge of taking M11M for tests, not sure how long will I be able to hold on  

Q2M is great but it's nowhere a match for M series in handling and feel..This is what's most important for me!

[Derbyshire Man]

8 minutes ago, Steadimann said:

 I'm trying to resist the urge of taking M11M for tests, not sure how long will I be able to hold on  

Q2M is great but it's nowhere a match for M series in handling and feel..This is what's most important for me!

For me I think it's a bit more finely balanced. I have always liked seeing the monochrome image through the viewfinder in monochrome. I also don't mind the red peaking focus in the EVF vs RF (for monochrome only - colour I prefer the RF I think). It gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

Of course I could always find a spot for a M11M in addition, don't get me wrong!

[Steadimann]

3 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

For me I think it's a bit more finely balanced. I have always liked seeing the monochrome image through the viewfinder in monochrome. I also don't mind the red peaking focus in the EVF vs RF (for monochrome only - colour I prefer the RF I think). It gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

Of course I could always find a spot for a M11M in addition, don't get me wrong!

I agree, one hand operation is great, especially in bad weather  there is nothing like trying to take a picture in rain or drizzle and holding umbrella  

[tom0511]

I find the "feeling" to shoot with an M and a Q is quite different. So IMO a mono Q doesnt replace a Mono M, and the other way around. Personally I have more fun shooting M. If one wants to spend money for both a M Mono and a M color is a different story. I wonder this myself. But I am lusting a lot for a M Mono (dont own one right now).

 

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb satijntje:

Am I the only one here who cannot tell which pic is coming from which camera?

I am the author of these pictures. But I cannot distinguish them either. Definitely they look a bit different. But which is better? Which is from Monochrom? For posting the image above I made probably not enough effort im LRC to make the 2 pictures alike. At the time when I made that test I took much more time in Lightroom Classic. Unfortunately I deleted that copy at the time.

To me today it is not so much the question about which is from Monochrom but (after "improvement" in Lightroom Classic) which is more pleasing or which is a better base for prints.

[M11 for me]

To me the main reason to own a Monochrom is the strong commitment to b&w. It's not about deciding in Lightroom whether to turn an image in b&w or leave it in colour. With the Monochrom I am a b&W-photographer. I see in b&w and I think about contrast and about light and shadows. This is the big difference with the Monochrom

[DadDadDaddyo]

I bought the M11 because of my experiences with the M10M, and my astonishment at the M10M's performance in comparison to the Fujifilm GFX series in mono, having used a fairly complete GFX system for several years as my main system. 

I found myself using the GFX less and less, and wanted to shoot color with my M series and LTM lenses. So I began selling off the GFX system, starting with selected zooms. I had the occasional need for zooms covered with the SL2, which also covered my occasional wish for autofocus. Those sales funded my M11, purchased Open Box from a reputable authorized dealer. 

When the M11M came out I finished selling off the GFX system and after a bit of a wait, found an M11M as an Open Box deal from that same reputable authorized dealer. I was planning to sell the M10M but haven't yet, and I'm not sure why. 

The M10M was a real breakthrough for me. I'd been using an M246 for a while and liked the concept, but the M10M just blew me away. I still recommend the M246 for folks who want to see if a Monochrom is for them. It's a great camera 

The M11M has proven to be everything to me that the M10M was, and more. I guess I hold on to the M10M thinking of it as backup, but I probably don't need to. But if I had to send the M11M off for repair I'd be mighty glad the M10M was there to reach for, even though, yes, I *could* just convert the M11 images to monochrome. I just became tired of constantly converting the GFX images, and that's part of how the M10M came to mean what it did to me. 

Guess I'm primarily a monochrome photographer who occasionally shoots color...

[Ne314satel]

On 1/16/2024 at 8:29 PM, Steadimann said:

Could anyone having M11M and M11 share 

Photos from the camera only converted to b/w (m11).

M11M +35smlx  ISO 2800 f2.8 1/1000sec

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M11 +35smlx ISO 800 f1.4 1/1000sec

 

 

[jps1]

On 5/3/2025 at 9:03 PM, Ne314satel said:

Photos de l'appareil photo uniquement converties en n/b (m11).

M11M +35smlx ISO 2800 f2.81/1000sec

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M11 +35smlx ISO 800 f1.4 1/1000sec

 

 

Bad comparison, why ISO 2800 f2.8 compared to ISO 800 f1.4?

Edited May 8 by jps1
traduction

[Ne314satel]

53 minutes ago, jps1 said:

Bad comparison, why ISO 2800 f2.8 compared to ISO 800 f1.4?

This shows how much worse the contrast is on the m11m. Even at 2.8 the contrast is worse than at 1.4. Sharpness is better on the m11m.

However, you can make your own comparison.

Edited May 8 by Ne314satel

[kkm]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Ne314satel:

This shows how much worse the contrast is on the m11m.

I was told on a Leica Workshop that the DNGs of the M11M are on purpose flat and had to be adjusted in the post.

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[costa43]

They are definitely flat on purpose to give people the most latitude in post. The higher the dynamic range the flatter the file in my experience. Colour DNG files are flat too but the software chosen to convert them adds contrast. Check out the difference between Adobe Neutral and Adobe Colour. 

[gotium]

5 hours ago, Ne314satel said:

This shows how much worse the contrast is on the m11m. Even at 2.8 the contrast is worse than at 1.4. Sharpness is better on the m11m.

However, you can make your own comparison.

Worse? I wouldn't say worse, just lower contrast - and by design. What this shows me is how much nicer the noise is from the M11M despite significantly higher ISO.