Contemplating Forgiveness--Why Do We Accept the M8?

[jaapv]

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If that had happened to me I wouldn't be here commenting. I would have dumped the system and moved on.

 

Same here, I would probably be using the DMR and bitterly lamenting the failure. After all, the positives, even on a forum, where the users with a bad experience are certain to be over-represented, outnumber the failed cameras by a large margin. The only question remaining, which nobody can answer is: is that ratio as good as, or better or worse than other high-end camera's?

[hankg]

Maybe Leica made a mistake with adopting the "Japanese" approach to WB. It would have been more consistent with their philosophy to indeed omit AWB and offer choices in WB that run parallel with film characteristics. Say 4 daylight settings inspired on Kodachrome, Velvia, Sensia and RSX-II, a couple of tungsten settings and a similar B&W scala, maybe with some specialist settings like fluorescent, IR, etc. Lack of courage?

 

I think that's a bad idea. You can set any color temperature you want now and leave it set. So right now you can set the white balance of any film stock. In the studio that's what I do and can control exactly what I get. For general walking around shooting the choice of AWB is a good thing. If it was unusable I'd just set it like film but it is usable otherwise why is anybody using it. You didn't get to change the color temperature of your film between frames -you could just pick daylight and forget it -then all your shots will be consistent, unlike film you get to change it in post. Without a grey card just setting it on daylight, cloudy, tungsten or flourescent is about as accurate as AWB no matter what camera you use anyway.

 

The issue with the M8 is the occasional off the wall frame. If that really bothers you set it to the appropriate general setting and forget it. When I get to the print stage I rarely pick the 'accurate' setting anyway I'll shift it warmer or cooler to suit the scene. You might wind up liking 5100K and I might prefer 5800K the camera might have measured it as 6200K average and the actual scene may have had all the above color temperatures and more in different areas of the scene -any of the settings will deliver the same IQ. It is not so critical as exposure at the capture stage.

[sdai]

The only question remaining, which nobody can answer is: is that ratio as good as, or better or worse than other high-end camera's?

 

Canon rolls out about 10k 1D series per month, Nikon makes about 8k-9k Dx series per month ... that's an easy math.

[jaapv]

I think that's a bad idea. You can set any color temperature you want now and leave it set. So right now you can set the white balance of any film stock. In the studio that's what I do and can control exactly what I get. For general walking around shooting the choice of AWB is a good thing. If it was unusable I'd just set it like film but it is usable otherwise why is anybody using it. You didn't get to change the color temperature of your film between frames -you could just pick daylight and forget it -then all your shots will be consistent, unlike film you get to change it in post. Without a grey card just setting it on daylight, cloudy, tungsten or flourescent is about as accurate as AWB no matter what camera you use anyway.

 

The issue with the M8 is the occasional off the wall frame. If that really bothers you set it to the appropriate general setting and forget it. When I get to the print stage I rarely pick the 'accurate' setting anyway I'll shift it warmer or cooler to suit the scene. You might wind up liking 5100K and I might prefer 5800K the camera might have measured it as 6200K average and the actual scene may have had all the above color temperatures and more in different areas of the scene -any of the settings will deliver the same IQ. It is not so critical as exposure at the capture stage.

 

Well, I don't do studio-work obviously, but otherwise my method is exactly as you describe.

[hankg]

On this subject of the seriousness of the AWB issues. I measure how serious an issue is by how it impacts 2 things.

 

1. The quality of my end product

2. The cost to produce my end product

 

So how serious is the AWB issue? What impact does it have on my end product -zero. What impact does it have on the time and cost to produce my end product -close enough to zero to be trivial. So if they fix it great and if they don't -no big deal. It's not affecting my image quality and it's not costing me time or money so it's not a concern.

 

Let me give you an example. Let's say I have a camera that is dead accurate with AWB. I take some pictures at sunset I want the warm, golden glow. Back in the studio I'm looking at the first image in my RAW converter. The camera has neutralized the image perfectly compensating for the golden cast. I change the WB to get back the look I want. This is pretty much what I have to do with every shoot decide what balance will give me the right look and it may or may not be the 'right' WB. So I dial in what I want and select the shoot and apply it. The occasional off the wall frame gets batch processed to the same WB along with everything else. So I don't see why all the excitement over this issue. How much additional work do a few wacked out WB frames create? ZERO. It's nice to have a grey card shot so you know what the base line is but that's just your starting point.

[ttriolo]

I have often asked myself these same questions. Why do we put up with a product with well documented flaws, when we would not do the same with another product, be it Nikon, Canon, etc. Everybody justifies it in their own way, whether it be the compact size, image quality or stealth factor. Understandably, we make these same choices every day with a variety of products we use.

 

There is some intrinsic element in the M8, in fact, the entire M line that causes us to justify and accept all the idiosyncrasies and quirks. True, we would not stand for it be it a Nikon or Canon, but with Leica, we quietly accept it as the price we pay for having something unique and not universally attainable. Don't get me wrong, it's a great camera, but definitely not perfect by any stretch. Those who claim zero malfunctions - I want to meet you. Are you really using your cameras? Are you really putting it through its paces or are you content just gazing at it lovingly on your night stands?

 

I think that this quality, call it panache, whatever, is something that affords the brand a pass, to a certain extent, when it comes to quality control. It's like putting up with a Ferrari's quirks when we know that a Toyota is much more reliable a vehicle. The same thing goes for those who save all their lives to live in a Frank Lloyd Wright house even though they know the roof leaks. There is something that a product's exclusivity that makes up for its flaws. You are right when you say that Nikon or Canon could not get away with it. People would be up in arms asked to accept similar shortcomings in their products. It's because these brands are in the mainstream. They are mega-corporations, with millions in advertising budgets. What they have in size and units sold they lose in exclusivity that only a niche product like the M8 can attain. It's what keep Leica or any brand that falls into this category, afloat.

[jaapv]

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Those who claim zero malfunctions - I want to meet you. Are you really using your cameras? Are you really putting it through its paces.

 

Err- yes. Over 12500 shots in all adverse circumstances and they are showing it -albeit subtly- as well.......

[larry]

Those who claim zero malfunctions - I want to meet you..

 

Tony,

 

Do you define malfunction to include quirky behavior, such as fast scrolling? I've had the camera do some odd things, but nothing I would consider to be a malfunction -- meaning a loss of operation.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

[Jamie Roberts]

Perhaps the M9 will omit AWB, JPEG capture, ISO >1000, and the LCD. They're all to a greater or lesser extent useless on the M8 and after a year of trying Leica still can't get them sorted anyway

 

Well, Vinay, I only take exception to your high ISO content remark, which is nonsense. Hardly useless, even within the fudge factor of "more or less" useless.

 

See here:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/38078-what-m8-noctilux-can-do-me.html#post399315

 

Just don't starve the sensor for light.

 

But the thing is, a lot of us just don't care about JPEGs (duh), AWB (which doesn't work well on any camera IMO) and I'm not sure what your point is on the LCD, except I guess it could be bigger or something.

 

So the M8 functions perfectly for me. I don't need to forgive anything. Yes, the venetian blinds is an annoyance. My 1ds2 dropping files--now THAT needed forgiveness

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}Those who claim zero malfunctions - I want to meet you. Are you really using your cameras? Are you really putting it through its paces or are you content just gazing at it lovingly on your night stands?

 

{snipped}

 

Now really, you should read the thread before you say something as dismissive and dumb as this. Having said that, I'd like to meet you too

 

What is it about "10s of thousands of actuations" in tough conditions you don't get?

 

As for Canon and Nikon, they get away with worse stuff all the time. Just try to focus a 16-35L Mk1 wide open on a 1ds2 and see what it looks like. Bleccch.

[hankg]

...

Those who claim zero malfunctions - I want to meet you. Are you really using your cameras? Are you really putting it through its paces or are you content just gazing at it lovingly on your night stands?

 

I think that this quality, call it panache, whatever, is something that affords the brand a pass, to a certain extent, when it comes to quality control.

 

I don't give a crap about exclusivity, panache or brand status. I do care about ergonomics, image quality and reliability. I don't form my opinions based on what I read on the internet, I base it on how the equipment performs in real world conditions. And so far the M8's performance has been steller. Am I lucky or are the users who have had some serious problems unlucky? I have no idea and really neither do you. But as long as the camera continues to perform I'll be happy to use it. If it becomes a headache I'll dump it.

 

When it's not on my nightstand my M8 is shooting ads, catalogs, portraits, etc, etc,

 

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[Guest Walt]

Howard-

 

I have not "forgiven" the camera, but I continue to use it for four reasons.

 

The first is the that I am simply accustomed to working with the M cameras and I haven't found an acceptable alternative that, on balance, is quite usable for me. I've tried and will continue to do so.

 

The second is that I seem to have found my own lubrication solution for the shutter release mechanism, which is otherwise the worst I have experienced in a camera and is, for me, a deal-breaker on the M8.

 

Thirdly, I'm lucky enought to be able to afford to own two bodies (I will probably need three) and two copies of each of the three lenses I use. (Leica has had one of my 28s for coming up on two months now, and a 35 is out to replace the grease melted out of it by a heated-up camera.)

 

Fourthly, I have clung to the belief (or just hope?) that the serious reliability and functional problems in this camera could be corrected through firmware and that Leica was committed to making those corrections. It seemed unimaginable to me that they would not have that committment. For a long while, I even believed that they would take forum member's suggestions to fix the shutter release with the zero-delay time release idea, implemented in software.

 

It now seems fairly clear that there are several ill-designed or archaic or unreliable hardware bits in this camera and firmware will do nothing for that. It now also seems, to me, probable that Leica is not committed to correcting what they could through the firmware. A year after the camera release, Leica has added code to support and sell new products (the Summarits) and, they say, gotten the battery level indicator to work. The scroll correction does not work (I'd speculate it's the scroll wheel hardware at fault); and their proprietary red-eye flash function is probably the least needed thing on this camera, though it might help them sell flash units. They have not actually made any statement of intent to the public to do anything about obvious problems and I now doubt they have such intent. It simply doesn't take that long to write software for a damned camera if you're serious about getting it done.

 

So, the question I would have asked is, "Why does Leica appear to have forgiven this camera?" And secondly, I suppose, "Why do you forgive Leica for forgiving it?"

 

Walt

[chris_tribble]

Jamie - couldn't agree more. I really don't get it when the camera is dismissed as a malfunctioning status symbol ... we don't get the M8 because we want to look like a 21st century HCB, we get it because it's a better tool for some purposes. We're really lucky, there are loads of good pieces of kit out there - it's just that the unique properties of the range finder had been marginalised with the advent of digital.

 

I have really clear memories of the first time I started getting professional work - I had an M6 + 35 & 90 cron. I'd sold the Leica III that my father had left me because I wanted a working tool, not a collector's item. A lot of people were buying Ms in those days, and using them for making a living

 

After a year or two the M6 was still a good tool, but I needed to be able to shoot longer, so I got an EOS 1n and picked up a second hand 70-200 in Japan. I didn't suddenly fall from grace. I simply needed a different tool.

 

And here I am with 2 M8s, a 5D and a 1DII. And I don't feel I have to forgive any of them for anything. I still make a living (not only with cameras I have to add - between 30% & 40% on an average year - I just don't have to mess around with film so much.

 

So Tony - want to meet someone who uses his M8 and hasn't had any malfunctions that have caused image loss (I'm really not worried about the scrolling stuff), you're always welcome for a coffee if you're in London. Oh - and I use AWB on the camera most of the time - but I always shoot RAW...

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}It now seems fairly clear that there are several ill-designed or archaic or unreliable hardware bits in this camera and firmware will do nothing for that. It now also seems, to me, probable that Leica is not committed to correcting what they could through the firmware. A year after the camera release, Leica has added code to support and sell new products (the Summarits) and, they say, gotten the battery level indicator to work. The scroll correction does not work (I'd speculate it's the scroll wheel hardware at fault); and their proprietary red-eye flash function is probably the least needed thing on this camera, though it might help them sell flash units. They have not actually made any statement of intent to the public to do anything about obvious problems and I now doubt they have such intent. It simply doesn't take that long to write software for a damned camera if you're serious about getting it done.

 

So, the question I would have asked is, "Why does Leica appear to have forgiven this camera?" And secondly, I suppose, "Why do you forgive Leica for forgiving it?"

 

Walt

 

To answer the questions, it's because of the ergonimics and the files that I "forgive" minor quirks of the system.

 

And they are minor. Yes, I'd like a better LCD screen, but it's not a deal-killer. Yes, I hate the power switch, which I always move by accident.

 

But the shutter? Give me a break. It's not that different (on my copy, anyway) from my m3 or m6.

 

My scroll wheel broke; Leica replaced the camera quickly. They've given me the same excellent service they have on the DMR.

 

If yours is broken (mine doesn't do the mad scroll thing anymore), then send it in.

 

Actually, and to be realistic, here is what Leica has done in ONE YEAR with the M8:

• given M8 buyers free filters for the IR problem
  
• given M8 buyers a fantastic deal on M lenses
  
• given M8 buyers a free recall to replace faulty parts
  
• apologised to M8 buyers for the IR problems
  
• changed the shutter timing to be more accurate
  
• updated the firmware for visual flaws
  
• updated the colour matrix for better DNG support in Adobe apps
  
• updated (with C1) the UV / IR profiles to the point where it's no longer a rush to make my own
  
• fixed the scrolling issue
  
• slightly improved high ISO response (relative to the first firmware a year ago)
  
• released major and minor updates for the M8 on a regular basis, even letting people know when they're doing internal

Seems like rather a lot to me in one year.

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

I enjoy the many posts of jaapv, hankg, Chris and Jamie on many subjects. Thanks for the always considerate, factual, helpful and constructive etc. contributions, which have helped me greatly over the time I have been visiting this Forum.

As a lifelong amateur my main reasons for buying, sticking to and LIKING the M8 are: The fact that I can use most of my old lenses with their particular characteristics, the lighter weight compared to good DSLR equipment, the quality of the digital files, the less obtrusive feeling that I get when photographing people.

The first M8 (black) was purchased in January '07 and the second (chrome) in August. I experienced the minor annoyances such as venetian blinds in b&w and colour, erratic behaviour of the AWB, one somewhat sudden death with the black M8 when using the SF 24, but no really serious problems which caused loss of a picture. I have thousands of exposures on the 2 cameras with old screw lenses incl. the 15mm Hologon which does mount on the M8 in spite of what Leica says, as well as the modern aspherics. The Noctilux 1.2 and 1.0, the 35 1.4 aspherical (first version), the 50/1.4 asph, the 75/1.4 etc have never given me serious focussing problems. When something went wrong, it was usually my user error. My percentages improved greatly after adopting the 1.25 magnifier and a diopter according to mt eyesight.

I wish that the AWB were more consistent, since I use DNG +Jpef fine in order to send pictures to friends and family by e-mail.

My biggest failure is in learning how to post on the Forum.

Teddy

[delander †]

There is little doubt that the M8 is buggy, certainly the most buggy digital camera I have ever owned. Generally these bugs are inconveniences and users have been prepared to put up with them in the hope that new FW will solve the problems. But now, with the latest FW release, really just for the Summarits, it is looking as if Leica is not intending to solve the remaining problems. Owners are understandably getting increasingly unhappy with this state of affairs.

 

If the menu/image jumping caused when scrolling is the result of a faulty scroll wheel, then Leica should let this be known and invite owners to send the camera in and get the wheel replaced.

 

The same for the Venetian blinds, if it is hardware then offer a replacement of the faulty part.

 

I suspect that the number of M8s affected by these problems is over 75%.

 

Jeff

[tbarker13]

Really, wouldn't an M8 be a pretty silly thing to buy if you were just looking for a status symbol, panache, etc. or whatever you want to call it?

I mean, when I carry my M8 around, 95 percent (if not more) of the people I come across have absolutely no idea what this camera costs. Most don't know what a Leica is.

It's not like flashing a rolex watch, or driving up in a Porsche.

I'm not saying there aren't people who buy for that reason, but clearly there are a lot of people who view the camera as a serious tool for photography.

[Guest tummydoc]

 

Actually, and to be realistic, here is what Leica has done in ONE YEAR with the M8:

 

Actually, to be realistic and truthful, here is your list again, translated from marketing-ese:

 

[*]given M8 buyers free filters for the IR problem

...we give you 2 filters for a problem we created, that can cause flare and require correction for cyan drift. If you have more than 2 lenses you need to buy more filters, plus, we wrote the corrections in firmware so that it corrects cyan only when used with our brand filters which are more expensive yet have aluminium mounts that bind...plus, you need to have your lenses coded for the firmware to work.

 

[*]given M8 buyers a fantastic deal on M lenses

 

Buy a new lens that we've recently doubled the price on and we'll give you 30% off.

 

[*]given M8 buyers a free recall to replace faulty parts

 

We'll fix your in-warranty camera for free, like it says in the warranty.

 

[*]apologised to M8 buyers for the IR problems

 

But we still won't admit it affects anything but black synthetic fabrics, sometimes.

 

[*]changed the shutter timing to be more accurate

 

It's an electronic shutter, it's supposed to be accurate.

 

[*]updated the firmware for visual flaws

 

Except the green bleed from the edge of the sensor, and the atrocious AWB.

 

[*]fixed the scrolling issue

 

Except for all the people who have updated and are still getting the scrolling issue.

[fotografr]

Nothing remotely apologist in that response. Others haven't been nearly so fortunate as you in terms of glitches and failures. I'd be curious if your enthusiasm might've been curbed had you to replace your M8 bodies several times, send them and your lenses away for months on end for sorting only to receive them finally without having been effectively sorted, and lost countless un-repeatable photo-ops as a result of the camera misbehaving, etc.

 

You just described my experience. I had three "sudden deaths" before getting an M8 that worked properly. My lenses all went in for coding, were gone for weeks, then the 50 lux ASPH came back with the wrong lens mount. Took another six weeks to turn that around.

 

But, here is the big, HOWEVER: My level of enthusiasm is as high as it could be. Love the camera; don't go anywhere without it; have nearly stopped using my Canon 5Ds; and, will buy the very next upgrade model Leica offers. Without hesitation. No apologies.

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[Jamie Roberts]

Actually, to be realistic and truthful, here is your list again, translated from marketing-ese:

{much whinging snipped}

 

Vinay, with respect, there's no marketing-ese in what I wrote, and though I'm hesitant to say this, I actually resent the implication that I'm somehow shilling for Leica.

 

I don't market for Leica in any way, shape or form. I don't benefit from an association with Leica except insofar as I use their equipment as a pro. I've never sold a profile or asked anyone for money based on my affinity for the M8.

 

So, respectfully, please refrain from pointing your scalpel-wit and accusations where they truly don't belong. You are, of course, entitled to your view of reality.

 

But please don't pretend I'm lying or not fully disclosing my own view honestly. Heck, as you probably know, I've told people on the forum NOT to buy them if they can't take the quirks or if I don't think they will enjoy using them.

 

As for your full disclosure, ok, but I never said everything was fixed with the camera. I never also said mine has been perfect. What I was reacting to was people saying "oh my Leica's done nothing for us".

 

That's just BS. I don't care if you think my viewpoint is somehow naive.

 

What I did say, and what Hank and others have said, is that we haven't personally experienced anything that requires "forgiveness"--which is a stupid thing to ask of a camera or camera company anyway!

 

Quirks? Yes. Major failures? No. I've never had to explain to anyone, as I did with other manufacturer's much more expensive stuff, that I lost their shots due to a camera malfunction. BTW--I still shoot that other manufacturer's stuff too, because complex products usually need about a year to settle down anway in my experience.

 

And Leica have done a lot with the camera in a year, even if they haven't done everything. Yes, some of it was face-saving, and should never have happened. Yes, taking filters off in the one in 5 thousand shot I need to when they might actually cause an artifact is a drag. But it's just not a deal breaker.

 

And I frankly don't care in the slightest about Leica's full mea culpas, which don't affect my photography. If they talk about greenery or magenta blacks with IR--who the heck cares? No-one actually shooting, that's for sure.

 

I haven't had any trouble with the filter mounts or from the "binding mount" whatever that is.

 

Now some people have had back luck with the camera. My heart truly does go out to them, and I know how frustrating it is when something you pay a lot of money for doesn't work properly.

 

But Leica will make it right; they've shown that over and over. If Leica can't make it right, or if people can't take that bad luck, then they should sell the M8 and forget about Leica and digital rangefinders (or R10s or whatever) for a good long while.

 

They should just go buy someone else's stuff and then threaten a class-action suit, or waste time on accusations of marketing-ese, when that stuff breaks, or gets recalled, or doesn't somehow live up to their expectations.

 

OK? I don't think Leica is done with the m8. But the main point a lot of us are trying to make is that this is not a matter of "forgiveness" in any way. If I didn't get the results I wanted to with the camera, I would simply sell it.