Overkill? Get both m10m and m10r or go with M11?

[geotrupede]

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I am a huge fan of M11, BUT having two for the same money is a very good deal. Seems to me a deal too good to be true, so check warranty and camera condition. If all checks then go for the full set as you can sell for 1.5 times the M11... so worst case scenario can make a profit!

G.

 

[M11 for me]

Am 1.5.2023 um 22:02 schrieb 01af:

But that is my impression exactly. Sorry if I got your intents, purposes, and requirements wrong. Maybe you could elaborate why a B/W picture converted from M10-R or M11 wouldn't meet your clients' expectations ...

Can I bring in another point:

Yes, a Monochrom has an advantage when we look at how it is able to render details. It's certainly not much but the advantage is visible in some cases. 

Now my point: In case that we need more details (for large prints) then we could use Topaz Gigapixel AI (or equivalent). Tests show that this kind of methods might close the gap.

To put that in general: We could easily use lower Megapixel sensors and in the (rare) cases that we need more details then we use Topaz.

[01af]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

...but the advantage is visible in some cases.

Yes, definitely. The M Monochrom—any model—has much better detail resolution than the regular M model it is based upon. Higher sensitivity and wider exposure latitude (often falsely referred to as 'dynamic range'), too.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

In case that we need more details (for large prints) then we could use Topaz Gigapixel AI (or equivalent). Tests show that this kind of methods might close the gap.

No, it cannot. Simply because you can apply Topaz Gigapixel AI (or equivalent) to M Monochrom files as well—which would immediately restore the gap.

.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb M11 for me:

We could easily use lower megapixel sensors and in the (rare) cases that we need more details then we use Topaz.

That's right. Yet, you're missing the point on several levels.

First of all, the detail resolution in a B/W picture converted from a 24 MP RGB image file easily supports high-quality printing at 1 × 1.5 m size (40 × 60 inches). So there's no lack of detail even when not using the latest and greatest. Yet, user pgh claims that's not good enough for (some of) his clients ... but frankly, I don't really believe him.

Second, superior detail resolution is not the point of making, offering, buying, and using monochrome cameras; it's just some curious side effect of omitting the Bayer CFA.

[pgh]

2 hours ago, 01af said:

Yes, definitely. The M Monochrom—any model—has much better detail resolution than the regular M model it is based upon. Higher sensitivity and wider exposure latitude (often falsely referred to as 'dynamic range'), too.

.

No, it cannot. Simply because you can apply Topaz Gigapixel AI (or equivalent) to M Monochrom files as well—which would immediately restore the gap.

.

That's right. Yet, you're missing the point on several levels.

First of all, the detail resolution in a B/W picture converted from a 24 MP RGB image file easily supports high-quality printing at 1 × 1.5 m size (40 × 60 inches). So there's no lack of detail even when not using the latest and greatest. Yet, user pgh claims that's not good enough for (some of) his clients ... but frankly, I don't really believe him.

Second, superior detail resolution is not the point of making, offering, buying, and using monochrome cameras; it's just some curious side effect of omitting the Bayer CFA.

This is my last response to you, because you can't get simple comprehension correct or worse, you keep intentionally misconstruing my points.

I never said the M10 wasn't good enough for my commercial clients - I said I keep a color body because of my commercial clients. The M10M would not be good enough for them because it is not color - that's pretty simple. I said the regular M10 I've used for years is not good enough for the large scale, paneled prints I do for a few reasons, which I detailed - and given that I am the client for this work - I don't let it out into the world until it is as I want it to be. I did some with the M10. They fell apart too much, and after years of hitting its limits I got a better tool for my purposes. Resolution is not endless, and sometimes the margins make a difference. You don't have to get on board with my reasons for wanting certain image qualities - but they exist. 

I'm not sure where you find yourself qualified to assess what I think is best for my own work, but that's a pretty fascinatingly entitled point of view. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by pgh

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 01af:

No, it cannot. Simply because you can apply Topaz Gigapixel AI (or equivalent) to M Monochrom files as well—which would immediately restore the gap.

You misunderstood: Of course I am talking about the M11. Its about getting more resolution (ideally same as Monochrom). So my post is still fully valid. No need for you to take everything apart. I talk about my own experience with M11-M and the use of Topaz with M11.  

Edited May 3, 2023 by M11 for me

[pippy]

On 5/1/2023 at 11:49 AM, 01af said:

It doesn't make sense to own—or worse yet, to carry—a regular and a monochrome camera at the same time. An M Monochrom is for those who see, and feel, and think, and create in black-and-white, and only in black-and-white...

What utter nonsense.

Philip.

Edited May 3, 2023 by pippy

[Jeff S]

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As I’ve written in this thread and elsewhere, I never carry my M10 Monochrom and M10-R at the same time because, for me, the main benefit of a Monochrom is to eliminate color distractions and potential color pics.  The b&w mindset builds after continuous use, just as in my b&w film days.  
 

But I still own an M10-R for those occasions when I want to shoot color, maybe 5% of the time. And since I only shoot my M bodies using RF with 28, 35, and 50mm lenses, I also shoot with an SL2 (still not while using the Monochrom) with zoom lenses for shorter and longer focal lengths, and if weather sealing is important, most often intentionally shooting and converting to b&w.

This works for me. Others will have different approaches. Black and white photography is still my passion; color provides an occasional diversion. But that’s not unusual.  Most people think of Ansel, for instance, as a B&W photographer.  Yet he shot color for 40 years and, after his death, a book of his color work was issued, edited by Harry Callahan. 

One size does not fit all.

Jeff

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jeff S

[jakontil]

Having extra body is always a good thing especially for travelling, i have both the m10 r Bp which i can never see myself part with and i added m11, regardless color + mono or both color, like mentioned earlier, a back up is always masterful 

anyway, i always carry a film body too and keeping lenses choices simple like 35mm fle, SR and a 28 summaron with 50 noctilux 1.2 mandatory

but shooting style differ one to each own.. bottom line, m10r + mono will be my choice unless you really want an M11 

[twogun]

On 5/1/2023 at 3:03 PM, Photon42 said:

Your name is @twogun. Get the R and the M.

Best advice!!

[rtai]

What a steal! I hope you made the right choice.

[swatch]

Twogun has interest about mono camera that take only black and white photos , if not Twogun would only ask 10 or 11 which is being a better choice.

Why not get the mono and learn different workflow to conclude if mono camera to be kept or not along the colour one ( I guess colour camera is a must to have for Twogun at this moment)?

I have the oldest full frame M9 and M9M, enjoy both for their own specialty: saturated colour of CCD and better clarity / defined details than conversion from M9 file.  Able to share accessories between these cameras however is not the reason as I never bring them out together.

[Snipe10]

I bought the M10R and Q2M, had the Q2M first otherwise I might have gone this route too, Love Leica

[grahamc]

On 5/2/2023 at 4:53 AM, didier said:

I am going through the same kind of thinking right now.

My M10M is currently (and has been for 3 years) my only digital M. I love it and see no reason to 'upgrade' towards the M11M. I actually prefer the M10M shutter.

I am considering adding a color body. I am more of an early adopter in general, but I am seriously considering getting one of the last new M10-Rs (can be had for about 6000 Eur here, which is a lot less than a M11). I think it is interesting to have the possibility to use the same batteries and accessories for 2 cameras.

Another option would be to way 6+ months to get a M11-P.

Still thinking...

Did you decide what to do?   I'm currently considering buying an M10-R to accompany by M10-D for travel (travelling with film is becoming a pain even though I much prefer using mechanical cameras)

I don't find the standard M10 files to be lacking anything for my style of photography, so for sure the 40MP M10-R offers enough in future-proofing for my needs. 

[twogun]

Update: Thanks to the release of the M11 and Q3 and people selling off their m10m's and m10rs,  I was able to get good deals on both. I had to sell off some other gear to compensate for some of the cost. I like having the base plate and interchangeable batteries between the two bodies. Now working thru the process/mindset of when to use BW (mostly evening. night) and m10R as a dedicated color body mostly for daytime. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by twogun

[Kiwimac]

I’m considering a similar thing. 
 

There’s one new M10M left in the country and I’ve been offered it at a god discount. 
 

The idea of shooting black and white with the extra detail and high ISO ability appeals to me, at least as something I should try. 
 

I do want a second body and there are no M10R bodies available new or used in NZ. There is a used M10P but not sure I want that, especially as it’s silver. 
 

The M11 just went up 10% here and the M11M is another $1,500 on top of that. 
 

What I’d like is a mint 10R BP but I think only 6 were sold in the country originally so the chances of that are slim. 

[jakontil]

14 hours ago, grahamc said:

Did you decide what to do?   I'm currently considering buying an M10-R to accompany by M10-D for travel (travelling with film is becoming a pain even though I much prefer using mechanical cameras)

I don't find the standard M10 files to be lacking anything for my style of photography, so for sure the 40MP M10-R offers enough in future-proofing for my needs. 

You wont regret it mate, i used m10r alongside M11 for my last trip, i hardly see any difference in outputs.. except my M10r is more shiny ✨ 🤪

m10D with R probably the most perfect combo coming from a film shooter

[dugby]

9 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

I’m considering a similar thing. 
 

There’s one new M10M left in the country and I’ve been offered it at a god discount. 
 

The idea of shooting black and white with the extra detail and high ISO ability appeals to me, at least as something I should try. 
 

I do want a second body and there are no M10R bodies available new or used in NZ. There is a used M10P but not sure I want that, especially as it’s silver. 
 

The M11 just went up 10% here and the M11M is another $1,500 on top of that. 
 

What I’d like is a mint 10R BP but I think only 6 were sold in the country originally so the chances of that are slim. 

If you make a trip to the West island, look up the Leica collector(seller) on Aus Gumtree in Monterey he may have what you can't find in the North n South islands....

[otto.f]

Buy of course the M10-R and the M10M; you get more camera for the same price, so why hesitate. I prefer the colors of the M10-R above those of the M11, and there are people who report the reverse. If however you want, after buying the M11, still an M11M, this camera is not in all aspects better than the M10M. It has a peculiar preference for blue for instance and is less optimal in the edges. 

I would personally have a little problem with getting two bodies at the same time. The high resolution camera's need some time to get used to, depending on where you come from and your lens park. I wonder if this is really a rare chance to get them for that price. You can also start with the M10M because you are more directed and inspired for B&W at the moment. The price of a used M10-R will probably not change that much the coming years.

[jakontil]

14 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Buy of course the M10-R and the M10M; you get more camera for the same price, so why hesitate. I prefer the colors of the M10-R above those of the M11, and there are people who report the reverse. If however you want, after buying the M11, still an M11M, this camera is not in all aspects better than the M10M. It has a peculiar preference for blue for instance and is less optimal in the edges. 

I would personally have a little problem with getting two bodies at the same time. The high resolution camera's need some time to get used to, depending on where you come from and your lens park. I wonder if this is really a rare chance to get them for that price. You can also start with the M10M because you are more directed and inspired for B&W at the moment. The price of a used M10-R will probably not change that much the coming years.

I tend to agree with you, both M10R and M11 produced different color in LR, being the former more towards neutral and M11 a tad more towards magenta 

i always have a middle point in slider between the two.. which is preferred? Well i cant say, but i always use LR and i prefer both to be identical

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[geoffreyg]

Another advantage of the M10M (assuming you like BW) is that you can shoot routinely at higher shutter speeds with higher ISO and still have clean images. For those of us with shaky hands or not such good shooting habits, this has taken blur off the board, and made Leica use so much better.