50mm Summicron v4 vs v5

[lct]

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9 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Ask your Leica importer, they might do this kind of thing without sending the lens back to Germany (Leica US does). They may offer a service to add 6-bit coding to your lens, which includes a CLA, for a reasonable fee.

+1

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[evikne]

1 hour ago, Kickstand said:

After doing lots of research and reading through this thread, I purchased my 50mm Summicron V4 one year ago. I have almost exclusively used this lens since then and it has made me fall in love with the rangefinder experience, being perfectly balanced on my M10. For most of that time I have used it without any hood so please don't let the flair complaints or the V5's built in hood put you off this stellar lens. The only problem with mine is, the focusing is rather stiff as it is in bad need of a service. I really don't want to be without it over the summer though so am trying to put it off for another few months.

I have a 50mm Summilux pre-ASPH which is quite similar to your Summicron. When I got it, the focus ring slipped very easily, but after a CLA it became much stiffer, probably due to a different type of lubricant. So it's not guaranteed that your Summicron will be much looser after a service. Perhaps it's a good idea to check out first what they think.

Very nice pictures by the way, both here and on your website, and I like the color tones. Do you use any kind of presets for them?

Edited May 21, 2024 by evikne

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

Very nice pictures by the way, both here and on your website, and I like the color tones. Do you use any kind of presets for them?

I forgot to mention that. @Kickstand your images are consistently great!

[Kickstand]

@BernardC @evikne thank you both for the nice words and detailed responses. I have a few presets based on Portra film that I dialed back and modified a bit. I also just tried some from the “Framelines” collection, one of which I really like and was the basis of the edit for the first image above. I edit in Capture One.

I wondered myself about the Summicron being naturally stiff until I tried a couple of recently serviced copies in Leica, Vienna last week. Both were very smooth and felt lovely. I would assume my copy has never been serviced since being manufactured in 1984 as the aperture ring and tab feel a bit loose compared to these copies. I also heard once about the tab snapping off of the V4’s which I’m starting to worry about now, considering I put quite a bit of pressure on it due to the stiff focusing.

Ideally, I do want the lens coded as well as CLA’d which the guys in Vienna told me would have to be sent off to Wetzlar for, with an expected wait of six months. I did try to find a reputable store in London that could perform the coding & CLA in a quick turnaround but I didn’t get very far. If you can recommend anyone, please do!

[crons]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:08 PM, SNJ Ops said:

Hello all. I recently picked up a used M10 and I have been looking at various 50mm options but seem set on getting a Summicron. In particular a v4 that has a focus tab. In terms of optics how much difference is there between the v4 and v5?

I buy every lens brand new so this is as the lenses behave when you buy them. Once you start chasing cheap used Leica lenses you're in a world of repairs and I would rather not do that. 

I like the v5 without the tab. The focus throw is very short and it makes focusing so easy and it is extra buttery smooth without it. I also like the integrated hood. 

Optically I believe they're identical or nearly identical with the v5 having better or more modern coatings. It still flares at a certain angle when the light hits it directly. 

Edited June 2, 2024 by crons

[lct]

Apologies if i'm repeating what i said above but as far as my copies are concerned, focus throw is shorter on v4 than v5 and coatings are apparently the same since v4 German version. Flare is also the same and so is the slight focus shift at around f/4. FWIW.

[crons]

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On 4/21/2023 at 3:24 PM, jimmielx said:

I have acquired the v5 recently. Certainly it handles well even without the tab. It has the built in hood too which I like. And digital era ones are 6 bit coded. I have read that later V5s have updated coatings.

However if you want the tab I think v4 would be the way to go. 

Or just add a tab to the v5. But like others here, I prefer it without it. Wide angles I don't mind as it helps me with the longer focus throw. But for the v5 Cron the throw is so nice the feel of the lens would be ruined for me if I stick a tab on it. It's all a matter of personal taste I suppose. 

Maybe they should've kept the knurled design of the rigid and the old Summilux. 

[lct]

Focus tabs fit better with shorter (v4) than longer(v5) focus throw.

[crons]

13 hours ago, lct said:

Focus tabs fit better with shorter (v4) than longer(v5) focus throw.

The Leica Summicron 50mm f/2 lenses, specifically the v4 and v5 versions, have different focus throw lengths. The v5 version of the Summicron 50mm f/2 has a shorter focus throw compared to the v4 version. Summicron 50mm f/2 v4 Known for its classic optical design and rendering, this version generally has a longer focus throw. This makes it possible to make very fine adjustments to focus, which is advantageous for precision work. Summicron 50mm f/2 v5 This version was designed with a shorter focus throw. The shorter throw allows for quicker focus adjustments, which can be beneficial in faster-paced shooting environments.

The v5's shorter focus throw makes it easier and faster to achieve focus, while the v4's longer focus throw allows for more precise adjustments. The choice between them can depend on the photographer's preference for speed versus precision.

Focus tabs tend to be more beneficial with lenses that have long focus throws. Here's why:  Long focus throws require more rotation to achieve critical focus, which can be challenging to manage precisely. A focus tab provides a better grip and more precise control, making it easier to make fine adjustments. With a long focus throw, the tab allows the photographer to move through the entire range of focus more smoothly and accurately. This is especially useful for lenses used in portrait or macro photography, where precise focus is crucial. While a long focus throw can slow down the focusing process, a focus tab can help compensate by allowing quicker adjustments without the need for large hand movements. The focus tab ensures that the photographer's hand stays in a consistent position, reducing the likelihood of unintentional shifts in focus, which is more likely with the larger movements required by a long focus throw.

For lenses with short focus throws, the benefits of a focus tab might be less pronounced, as these lenses typically require less rotation to achieve focus, making precise adjustments easier to handle without additional aids. However, a focus tab can still be useful for maintaining a steady hand position and providing tactile feedback, even with shorter throws.

Edited June 3, 2024 by crons

[lct]

21 minutes ago, crons said:

The v5 version of the Summicron 50mm f/2 has a shorter focus throw compared to the v4 version.

The opposite as far as my copies are concerned.

[crons]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

The opposite as far as my copies are concerned.

The focus throw lengths of the Leica Summicron 50mm f/2 lenses (versions v4 and v5) can indeed vary between individual copies due to slight manufacturing tolerances. While many users report that the v5 generally has a shorter focus throw than the v4, there are instances where this might not hold true for every lens copy.

Same as in the APO 50 Summicron also has a longer focus throw than the v5 sunmicron, and this is the reason why it has a focus tab. lenses with long focus throws have focusing tabs. Putting a focus tab on the v5 Summicron 50 is like putting a focus tab on a 90mm lens. It would be awkward due to its very short focus throw. 

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by crons

[lct]

I own two Summicron 50/2 v4 copies. One early Canada made with "Tiger paw" focus tab and a later German copy with regular focus tab. Both have a shorter focus throw than v5 by about 5mm. Not a big difference but those interested in a shorter focus throw w/o focus tab may wish to take a look at another superb lens, the Konica Hexanon 50/2. It is a clone of the Summicron v5 with similar qualities and flaws but its focus throw is even shorter than that of the Summicron v4. FWIW.

[lct]

1 hour ago, crons said:

Same as in the APO 50 Summicron also has a longer focus throw than the v5 sunmicron, and this is the reason why it has a focus tab.

The opposite again i'm afraid. Please don't believe that i like contradicting you but i happen to own all those lenses. As far as my copies are concerned, the Summicron 50/2 apo has as shorter focus throw than both v4 & v5.

[Danner]

1 hour ago, crons said:

The Leica Summicron 50mm f/2 lenses, specifically the v4 and v5 versions, have different focus throw lengths. The v5 version of the Summicron 50mm f/2 has a shorter focus throw compared to the v4 version.

The v4 and v5 have very similar focus throws.  It is the Summicron v3 that has the really long focus throw, similar to the v1 and v2 50 Summilux.

[Jeff S]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:15 AM, Jeff S said:

I replaced my v.4 and v.5 Summicrons long ago with the 50 Summilux ASPH, and haven’t looked back.  

I lied.  Recently decided on a whim to add back a new 50 Summicron v.5 (sold my 35 Summilux FLE).  Better than I remember from using one many years ago, and a terrific companion of late on my M10 Monochrom. Nice handling, smooth operation and fine IQ. No flaring issues that I’ve yet encountered. Also pleased with results pairing it with my M10-R, but that gets far less use.  Still have my 50 Summilux ASPH v.1, but I’ve put it aside for now. Go figure; I guess one can go back.

Jeff

[Big Jim]

Hi 

I´m hoping someone can advise me. I have decided to buy a used 50mm Summicron V.4 and have found one locally. The body has many signs of use, no dents or scratches but a much loved lens. More importantly the lens glass is very very good and price reflects that fact that I intend to send it for a CLA as there is very minimal oil on the aperture blades. The one problem that worries me (in the sense that I´m not sure if it is serious and can even be fixed) is that there is some very slight movement (less than 1mm) between the aperture and the focus ring. It´s only noticeable and audible as a quiet click. It is imperceptible when focusing.

The thing that worries me is that I read the following on another forum (which was then contradicted)

one thing no one ever mentions with the V4 is if it develops a wobble the lens is essentially garbage. The helical in the V4 summicron is constructed in such a way that in order to disassemble the lens to regrease the lens or repair any wobble it may have you have a high likelihood that it wont reassemble to the same tolerances which means the lens will still be loose. 

I just wanted to check that the movement described is not something that you would result in you recommending me to avoid buying ?

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[pippy]

3 hours ago, Big Jim said:

...The thing that worries me is that I read the following on another forum (which was then contradicted)

one thing no one ever mentions with the V4 is if it develops a wobble the lens is essentially garbage. The helical in the V4 summicron is constructed in such a way that in order to disassemble the lens to regrease the lens or repair any wobble it may have you have a high likelihood that it wont reassemble to the same tolerances which means the lens will still be loose...

What a pile of horsesh1t.

Philip.

[Big Jim]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

What a pile of horsesh1t.

Philip.

Thanks Philip 

You mean such a wobble is normal ? Or that it can be easily fixed ? 

Edited February 3 by Big Jim

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[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Big Jim said:

You mean such a wobble is normal ? Or that it can be easily fixed ? 

I’m not Philip and not as knowledgeable as him but I can say from my experience that a slight wobble is not a reason for not using a lens (which is why you buy it). My v4 is in an impeccable condition and shows no iris wobble but isn’t particularly stiff either. I’m positive that a CLA performed by a proper expert will improve your lens’ aperture ring handling.

What concerns me most is the condition of the glass which must be 100% (that can be challenging when searching for older lenses. Looks like you got lucky:). This cannot be CLAed to 100%.

Focusing dampening cannot be too smooth with the right resistance. My v4, has that, and a Voigtländer 35mm Nokton. My beloved 35mm Summicron ASPH workhorse is a tad too stiff despite being super smooth otherwise. If you want that right, talk to a lens technician who understands this issue and can customize this to your liking (they use different greases for that).

The v4 Summicron can be maintained and adjusted as any other much more expensive Leica lens. It’s made of the highest standard which isn’t reflected in the price because it’s still available new in the form of the v5 (which is the cheapest lens in the Leica stable) and considered to be the lesser sibling.

Most experts (not collectors), however, consider the 50mm Summicron v4 as the most desirable version of the 50mm f/2 M-mount lenses due to its size, handling, and unexcited rendering, which is spectacularly normal and very much usable already at f/2. Love it and will never sell it.

If you have some experience with lenses and know what to look for, you can buy from any trustworthy source. I’m not a Leica mega shopper, but when I buy I’m happy to buy from both private and from reputable dealers, whith the emphasis on reputable. For the beginner, the reputable dealer is the much better way to go.  

Edited February 3 by hansvons

[hansvons]

13 hours ago, Big Jim said:

I just wanted to check that the movement described is not something that you would result in you recommending me to avoid buying ?

I just checked my v4 copy’s aperture. No play. But the aperture can be turned pass the f/2 mark by a few millimetres. Again, a non-issue and very much likely by design.

A perspective on purchasing camera gear: I know we are very different in how and why we purchase camera gear. I don’t collect, couldn't care less about special editions etc. But I shoot a lot, sometimes with clients paying for the shoot, which adds an economical aspect to my purchases. I do care a lot about my results, subjects must be in focus, and the gear experience must be motivating. That’s why I shoot with M cameras. Lenses matter a lot to me, but so does the price. I rather have a beaten-up v4 with 100% glass, great damped focus, and a (slightly) wobbly iris ring for 1k than a new Summilux ASPH with no history and no soul that requires 100 payed shooting days to ROI its investment compared to the v4 Summicron that will be paid for within 25 days. I also believe in sticking to one specific lens as much as possible for consistency, which makes me a picky buyer—if I buy.

Edited February 3 by hansvons