Small 35mm with pleasing bokeh for busy backgrounds?

[Bikie John]

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I don't think anybody has suggested this yet - the (very old) 35mm f/2,8 Summaron might be a good bet. It is certainly small and light. I just went out and tried to take some samples but didn't get anything meaningful. I'll try again when I have some more time.

John

[Robert Blanko]

The 35 APO Summicron IMHO has a pleasant bokeh.

An example with very "complicated" background (highlights and branch structures in the roses on the right), at f 2.0. I just cropped the left part for privacy reasons; our cat gave us her consent 😉:

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[SonnarGauss]

I have most of the 35mm Voigtlander lenses, and feel like they would satisfy pretty much any expectation someone might have.

The Nokton 1.2 and 1.5 are both very modern and clean, rendering smooth bokeh with a tasteful touch of swirl. Both are incredibly sharp, and I've never felt I needed more resolution than they offer. They're both incredibly flare resistant. If someone literally gave me a 35mm f1.4 Summilux FLE for free, I couldn't imagine a use case in which I'd choose it over the combination of the Nokton 1.5 and 1.2. The 1.5 especially provides an amazingly compact and tactile user experience. 

The Ultron 2.0 is also very high-resolution, and offers a touch more vintage character in it's bokeh [mild outlining and mild swirl] without being excessive or imposing itself excessively on the photo.

The Nokton Classic 1.4 quite flamboyantly displays its aberrations, and in most photos is indistinguishable from the Leica Steelrim [they're almost identically optically, so that's not a surprise]. It displays glow, pronounced swirl, pronounced outlined bokeh/busyness, soft corners, and a unique magenta flare that's not present on the Steelrim.     

The Color Skopar renders somewhere between the Ultron 2.0 and Nokton 1.4, but is very sharp. Fundamentally you'd be getting it for the size rather than bokeh anyway [f2.5]. 

35mm f1.2 Nokton III [example photo below]

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35mm f1.4 Nokton Classic [example photo below]

35mm f1.5 Nokton [example photo below]

35mm f2.0 Ultron [example photo below]

35mm f2.5 Color Skopar --- I don't have a good example photo from the Color Skopar since I tend to use the above lenses much more often 

 

[raizans]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:30 AM, evikne said:

The better corrected the lens is, the smoother the bokeh you get. This means that the 35mm APO Summicron should be one of the best lenses, also in terms of bokeh. From many examples I've seen, this seems to be quite true.

Isn't it slight undercorrection of spherical aberration that makes soft-edged OOF highlights behind the plane of focus?

[SonnarGauss]

3 hours ago, raizans said:

Isn't it slight undercorrection of spherical aberration that makes soft-edged OOF highlights behind the plane of focus?

From my limited understanding from the below sources:

If a lens is over-corrected for spherical aberration, the specular highlights/background bokeh will be outlined, while the foreground bokeh will be smooth and uniform/gaussian.

If a lens is under-corrected for spherical aberration, the specular highlights/background bokeh will be smooth and uniform/gaussian, while the foreground bokeh will have outlining.

Modern lens manufacturers seem to under-correct for spherical aberration for smooth bokeh quality. I'd imagine they must then compensate for other aberrations this approach introduces?

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/bokeh-explained/#Spherical_Aberration

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/voigtlander-ultron-11-7-35-mm-review/

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/understanding-bokeh  

[Max365]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:28 AM, sometimesmaybe said:

i'll just jump on the CV 35mm f1.2 III bandwagon too - it's not super small, but it's perfectly manageable (the earlier versions are a tad larger and heavier) 

took it out for a quick shoot yesterday evening, just editing some of the images now. the vignette comes from the lens being shot wide open 

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Does the lens enter in the viewfinder?

[sometimesmaybe]

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30 minutes ago, Max365 said:

Does the lens enter in the viewfinder?

yes, and ive responded in the thread

 

[SonnarGauss]

14 hours ago, Max365 said:

Does the lens enter in the viewfinder?

I actually had to test this because after all my usage of the 1.2/35 III and 1.5/35 I never actually noticed any blockage. Going back, the 1.2/35 III actually does produce some decent blockage, but clearly not enough for me to notice in practice. The 1.5/35 produces trivial blockage. At MFD the 2.0/35 and 1.4/35 barely touch the corner, and the 2.5/35 doesn't even come close.

In hindsight, I think when I first started in the M system I noticed frame blockage, but now it's invisible to me.

Edited October 30, 2023 by SonnarGauss
Added 1.4/35

[yanidel]

I don't know if it classifies as a small lens, but I love the bokeh of my 35mm Summilux Asph pre-FLE. I find it very smooth wide open, and the colors are great.

[la1402]

I have the newest Lux FLE, and it can be pretty wild and harsh. I would not choose it for a quest for bokeh but otherwise it is impressive. 

[a.noctilux]

😄

Not helping,

 

I'd just avoid busy backgrounds if possible (moving-a-bit maybe).

If not 35mm Summicron (1 to 4) or Summaron can "cancel" the business, how far, only experiences can tell.

[FrozenInTime]

I would agree with @yanidel in that the 35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE renders smoothly. Mine is an early one, bought twenty five years old and has done stellar service.

I tend to shoot at f/1.4 or f/5.6 so focus has always been reliable. The main downside is circular flare arcs from very bright sources.

I bought the 351.5 Nokton last year; still learning the lens; flare is much better controlled, but I'm not yet so confident in its focus shift and critical sharpness across the frame. 

I also got the 35/1.4 SC II as a lens for outlined bokeh; a character match with the 50/1.5 Heliar. 

 

[lct]

Depends at what aperture. At f/1.4, Nokton 35/1.4 SC v2. At f/2, Summicron 35/2 asph v1. At f/2.8, Biogon 35/2.8.

[JoshuaR]

In the end, I did the following:

• Got in the habit of stopping down when the background is super-busy, and just composing more carefully.
• Bought a 35mm Summicron v3, which I found quite nice, in terms of bokeh in busy situations.
• Complemented it with a 35 Steel Rim Reissue, which is now my main 35mm lens.
• Just learned to relax and not worry so much about the bokeh.

The last step has proven to be crucial! I'm just . . . not going to think about it so much from now on. If the bokeh is distracting, I just convert to black and white, which often solves it. 

I'm now trying to adopt a "don't overthink it" ethos with my Leica gear, in hopes that it will save me time and money. We'll see how that goes....

[yanidel]

4 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

I would agree with @yanidel in that the 35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE renders smoothly. Mine is an early one, bought twenty five years old and has done stellar service.

I tend to shoot at f/1.4 or f/5.6 so focus has always been reliable. The main downside is circular flare arcs from very bright sources.

I bought the 351.5 Nokton last year; still learning the lens; flare is much better controlled, but I'm not yet so confident in its focus shift and critical sharpness across the frame. 

I also got the 35/1.4 SC II as a lens for outlined bokeh; a character match with the 50/1.5 Heliar. 

 

I never noticed the circular flare arcs, I always thought of this lens as mostly flare prone. Maybe because I am still using my M8 UV/IR filter on it, don't know if it makes a change. 

[SonnarGauss]

A few more from the Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.5. Of the 30 or so M-mount lenses I have, it feels the nicest in the hand, and is very compact. I haven't noticed any real-world circumstances in which it's anything but sharp. The bokeh is very smooth.

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[jayroon]

I quite like the bokeh of the Summaron 35 2.8. I happend to have taken some photo's in a wooded area recently. 

Summaron 35 2.8 + M246

 

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[Babylonia]

Am 5.11.2023 um 01:29 schrieb SonnarGauss:

A few more from the Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.5. Of the 30 or so M-mount lenses I have, it feels the nicest in the hand, and is very compact.
I haven't noticed any real-world circumstances in which it's anything but sharp. The bokeh is very smooth.

Thank you showing these pictures  within your previous message.
I like the rendering and bokeh of this Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f1.5 very much.
Your pictures did aspire me „maybe“ to buy one for myself.

So I „tried“ that lens to.
But as I don’t own a Leica camera, but an L-mount „Panasonic S1R”, I tried the lens using a Leica M to L-mount adapter.

It always can be a „hit or miss“ if this short build "M" mount lenses as by their optical design,
where distance to the sensor plane is very short, shall match?
And the image quality to borders and corners is properly “enough”.

As it is a known issue that e.g. the thickness of the sensor cover glass shall have a negative impact.
Specially Leica camera’s have a thin sensor cover glass and the shape and place of micro-lenses in front of each pixel,
known to be a (far) better match / better coordinated for this kind of lenses.

E.g. several Voigtländer lenses as produced as well for Leica M-mount, as e.g. for Sony E, or Nikon Z camera’s.
The lenses for these mounts specially are amended / adjusted optically, for the characteristics of these camera’s.
(Tests using the "same" lens, but for M-mount and adapted to e.g. Sony E camera mount,
have less quality into borders / corners, than the E-mount version of the "same" lens).

But as I didn’t found any examples or tests in combination of this "M" mount lens adapted with a „Panasonic S1R”, I just give it a try.
My photo supplier was willing to take the lens to the store to do a global test.

Made a comparison side by side with a Sigma 35mm F2 DG DN | 'C' lens  (made for L-mount).

I only tried wide open aperture settings closing down to F 2.8 maximum.  (I want to use these primes specially for their fast openings).

So for Voigtländer   1.5 - 2.0 - 2.8
     for Sigma                    2.0 - 2.8

And tried different focus areas. Focusing in centre, and focusing “mid frame” area. To rule out any field curvature issues.

Unfortunately, the Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f1.5 can “not be used” in combination with a „Panasonic S1R” camera.
Only centre area is acceptable.
Going to mid frame and borders, the image is declining rapidly.  ( F1.5 can not be used at all ).

Even when the Sigma is used wide open F 2.0, and the Voigtländer closed to F 2.8  (so ~two stops down).
The image quality of the Sigma outperform the Voigtländer by miles to borders and corners.

So I ended up, buying the Sigma lens.  Very pity, as these kind of Voigtländer lenses I like very much.
(And a charm as for build mechanical quality, shape and dimensions and fitting as a combination to the Panasonic camera).

I do have some older Voigtländer lenses made for Nikon SLR mount, but as the base distance to sensor plane is far more long,
and longer focal length to.  These lenses do a better job in combo to the Panasonic S1R. (Each having its own character though).

Edited November 29, 2023 by Babylonia

[SonnarGauss]

8 hours ago, Babylonia said:

Thank you showing these pictures  within your previous message.
I like the rendering and bokeh of this Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f1.5 very much.
Your pictures did aspire me „maybe“ to buy one for myself.

So I „tried“ that lens to.
But as I don’t own a Leica camera, but an L-mount „Panasonic S1R”, I tried the lens using a Leica M to L-mount adapter.

It always can be a „hit or miss“ if this short build "M" mount lenses as by their optical design,
where distance to the sensor plane is very short, shall match?
And the image quality to borders and corners is properly “enough”.

As it is a known issue that e.g. the thickness of the sensor cover glass shall have a negative impact.
Specially Leica camera’s have a thin sensor cover glass and the shape and place of micro-lenses in front of each pixel,
known to be a (far) better match / better coordinated for this kind of lenses.

E.g. several Voigtländer lenses as produced as well for Leica M-mount, as e.g. for Sony E, or Nikon Z camera’s.
The lenses for these mounts specially are amended / adjusted optically, for the characteristics of these camera’s.
(Tests using the "same" lens, but for M-mount and adapted to e.g. Sony E camera mount,
have less quality into borders / corners, than the E-mount version of the "same" lens).

But as I didn’t found any examples or tests in combination of this "M" mount lens adapted with a „Panasonic S1R”, I just give it a try.
My photo supplier was willing to take the lens to the store to do a global test.

Made a comparison side by side with a Sigma 35mm F2 DG DN | 'C' lens  (made for L-mount).

I only tried wide open aperture settings closing down to F 2.8 maximum.  (I want to use these primes specially for their fast openings).

So for Voigtländer   1.5 - 2.0 - 2.8
     for Sigma                    2.0 - 2.8

And tried different focus areas. Focusing in centre, and focusing “mid frame” area. To rule out any field curvature issues.

Unfortunately, the Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f1.5 can “not be used” in combination with a „Panasonic S1R” camera.
Only centre area is acceptable.
Going to mid frame and borders, the image is declining rapidly.  ( F1.5 can not be used at all ).

Even when the Sigma is used wide open F 2.0, and the Voigtländer closed to F 2.8  (so ~two stops down).
The image quality of the Sigma outperform the Voigtländer by miles to borders and corners.

So I ended up, buying the Sigma lens.  Very pity, as these kind of Voigtländer lenses I like very much.
(And a charm as for build mechanical quality, shape and dimensions and fitting as a combination to the Panasonic camera).

I do have some older Voigtländer lenses made for Nikon SLR mount, but as the base distance to sensor plane is far more long,
and longer focal length to.  These lenses do a better job in combo to the Panasonic S1R. (Each having its own character though).

Yes, your findings aren't surprising at all. I used to use M mount lenses on a Sony A7c, and the corners were horrendous vs my M10.

It's pretty hard to beat Sigma image quality, as they're quite liberal with the size of their lenses, they're optimized for sensor-stack thickness, and the electronic information allows real-time lens profile corrections. Although this 2.0/35 is reasonably small for an autofocus lens, it's quite massive compared with the Voigtlander 2.0/35 Ultron for example.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Babylonia]

Thanks for sharing.   Quite different character this MS Optics 36mm f1.3
I can imagine it is a joy playing around with so many lenses and their characteristics.
For every opportunity a special lens type for choice.

My most light weight and tiny lens, for playing around is an  M42 Industar 50mm II - f3.5
Weight of the lens alone 68 gram     Weight of a M42 to L-mount adapter is more ---> 97 gram   😀