SL 100-400 f/5.6-6 Rebrand But Not the Same Lens

[Doug Trabaris]

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On 3/9/2023 at 12:55 AM, MediaFotografie said:

the question is: will this new converter work with the 90-280 - or only with the new (Sigma) 100-400?

as far as I remember the Sigma converters 1.4/2 boths can‘t be used with 90-280

I just read the 1.4 converter only works with the 100-400 “Leica” zoom and not the 90-280 Leica zoom. Weird.

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[Doug Trabaris]

On 3/9/2023 at 12:04 AM, SrMi said:

Is there a rumor that the 1.4x extender will work with 90-280?

I learned from Leica this 1.4x converter doesn’t work with the Leica 90-280 zoom, and only with the new “Leica” 100-400 lens. 

[SrMi]

Just now, Doug Trabaris said:

I just read the 1.4 converter only works with the 100-400 “Leica” zoom and not the 90-280 Leica zoom. Weird.

It is not weird, it was to be expected (based on TCs from other manufacturers).

[chrismuc]

Sigma uses 30 lines/mm, Leica 20 and 40, so the graphs are not directly comparable.

[pf4eva]

3 hours ago, RoySmith said:

My 24-90 has lens creep. I can control with a wide elastic over the zoom ring and body. It’s annoying but not worth sending it for repair. 

For me It doesn't creep if you just hold it down, but if you apply some small vibration it does. So when you're walking with the lens it creeps heavily and because the barrel is at 90mm, I also now have some small play in the barrel.

[pf4eva]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

No,that is the Lens Compendium. There is one for sale on Amazon right now. I meant the newer Leica Compendium. But no matter, in the part about Leica and optical design they both stress the importance of the mechanical construction for image quality.

 

Could you please drop a link? Google only returns Lens Compendium. 
That is true that mechanics are important, however Sigma is pretty average lens to begin with and we do not know if internal mechanics are any different. Until someone will disassemble it or do the Xray, it is a pure speculation.

I wonder if someone can post picture of inside barrel trough the lens to see if zooming mechanism any different.

 

[jaapv]

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What kind of link? The content is not online. 

1 minute ago, pf4eva said:

Could you please drop a link? Google only returns Lens Compendium. 
That is true that mechanics are important, however Sigma is pretty average lens to begin with and we do not know if internal mechanics are any different. Until someone will disassemble it or do the Xray, it is a pure speculation.

I wonder if someone can post picture of inside barrel trough the lens to see if zooming mechanism any different.

 

It is the quality of the mechanism, not just the design. 

[pf4eva]

6 hours ago, Kristofferpaulsen said:

Priiiiiime example.. see what you did there..

Those mentioned lenses are stellar, but they're most likely nothing to do with this 100-400mm discussed here (apart from the font, the badge and metal housing)

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, chrismuc said:

Sigma uses 30 lines/mm, Leica 20 and 40, so the graphs are not directly comparable.

Yup, was just going to say that. The Leica has more contrast in that line because it is a less demanding test. If you imagine an intermediate line, it would line up quite well with the Sigma. Everything suggests that the lens formulas are identical or near identical. That is not to say that there is no difference. Sample variation is real, quality control is real, and different materials can affect lens performance as well (expansion and contraction in heat and cold etc). The good news here is that people get to choose. Sigma for those who do not mind a different brand name and would rather save money, and Leica for those who want consistent design and materials, and perhaps a better feeling build quality.

[pf4eva]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

What kind of link? The content is not online. 

7 minutes ago, pf4eva said:

If you're talking about that book, i have it. It has no information if internal mechanics of sigma lenses are any different than Leica rebadges. If I've missed something - please feel free to tell me the page.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[pf4eva]

8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

What kind of link? The content is not online. 

It is the quality of the mechanism, not just the design. 

So where is the information that the quality of actual mechanism is any different? I can see that outer barrel is metal, that's all we know so far.

[jaapv]

I just checked you negative view of the Sigma lens by reading some respected reviewers. It appears that your negative opinion is rather unique. Most of the reviews put the optical quality on the same level as the Sony equivalent which is considerably more expensive than the Leica. This is the last response you can expect from me on this subject. 

[hamey]

I can never understand so much criticism towards the 24-70 and the latest offering 100-400 mm lenses.

What we have to remember that Leica is in a alliance with Sigma and Panasonic, therefore these three companies are obligated to share Technology and manufacturing.

I have no problems with this ALLIANCE, matter of fact I think it's great that they have done this, I have played with the 24-70mm and I rather like it, probably will buy this lens.

For those that are not happy with this arrangement, just get something  else, because believe me there will be more of it in the future and the SL system needs it to survive.

I have only owned the SL2-S Reportage since last Christmas, but do I love this camera, to me it's a masterpiece of engineering, it doesn't care what lens you attach to it, or where it's made. 

Nore should we. 

Ken.

Edited March 11, 2023 by hamey

[pf4eva]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I just checked you negative view of the Sigma lens by reading some respected reviewers. It appears that your negative opinion is rather unique. Most of the reviews put the optical quality on the same level as the Sony equivalent which is considerably more expensive than the Leica. This is the last response you can expect from me on this subject. 

So you cannot provide any material information on Sigma vs Leica optical differences and internal mechanical differences. That's ok. I just wanted to confirm if I'm missing something here. 

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Most of the reviews put the optical quality on the same level as the Sony equivalent

I'm not sure who those folks are. I never seen any comparison where this sigma is better than Canon or Sony equivalent. There is just no comparison in terms of IQ. It is ok lens for 900$ what it priced for, but it is not even close.
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=1147&Camera=1106&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=1&LensComp=1536&CameraComp=1175&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=4&APIComp=0

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Sony equivalent which is considerably more expensive than the Leica.

This is not true, the price difference is only around 200-300$ at most.

 

 

 

[pf4eva]

56 minutes ago, hamey said:

I can never understand so much criticism towards the 24-70 and the latest offering 100-400 mm lenses.

Criticism is mainly because it is 1:1 rebadge with different outer casing with no optical improvements. They basically put a Leica label on good (in case of 24-70) and average (in case of 100-400mm) lenses, jacked priced and sell it not even mentioning that they're optically identical. I think it is just misleading customers, but I know it is a common practice.

 

58 minutes ago, hamey said:

What we have to remember that Leica is in a alliance with Sigma and Panasonic, therefore these three companies are obligated to share Technology and manufacturing.

I have no problems with this ALLIANCE, matter of fact I think it's great that they have done this, I have played with the 24-70mm and I rather like it, probably will buy this lens.

For those that are not happy with this arrangement, just get something  else, because believe me there will be more of it in the future and the SL system needs it to survive.

I don't think anyone has issues with this. It is just expectation of optical performance,  from Leica lenses are higher than from sigma. Panasonic has S-pro line with leica colab, no-one has issues with that.

 

 

[jaapv]

In their Australian blurb ( see elsewhere in this thread ) Leica suggests better optical performance. I have seen nothing yet to disprove this point, mainly because the people dissing this lens have never even seen one or even both… The only reliable comparison I have seen was on this forum and I did not see any IQ complaint there. Even of the optical quality is equal it should be up to the buyer to decide whether the far better build quality is worth the price difference. For me it would be a no-brainer. Hammering Leica for offering a lens that is by all accounts (see for instance the Camera Labs review) equal to other  branded lenses at a reasonable price ( the comparable Sony costs 400 $ more)  can only be laudable. That is what the L alliance is about. Customer choice.
Deifying Leica  is downright silly. Although their marketing department probably loves it.

[PwoS]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

... That is what the L alliance is about. Customer choice. ...

I don't think this is the kind of customer choice most customers are looking for. To buy the same optical system in two different cases under two different brand names at two vastly differing prices. Real customer choice IMHO would be to choose between two or more optical systems , the pricier rendering better pictures than the cheaper.

[Doug Trabaris]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

It is not weird, it was to be expected (based on TCs from other manufacturers).

I agree. I’m just frustrated Leica didn’t design the mount in the new 100-400 zoom to match that of the existing 90-280 zoom so the 1.4x teleconverter would work in both. 

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[thatkatmat]

46 minutes ago, PwoS said:

I don't think this is the kind of customer choice most customers are looking for. To buy the same optical system in two different cases under two different brand names at two vastly differing prices. Real customer choice IMHO would be to choose between two or more optical systems , the pricier rendering better pictures than the cheaper.

Well, that's what they've done. Look at the APO primes vs the ASPH primes. They ARE giving us more choices, but that's not good enough because one set has a shared design with their business partners? I mean, who's to say Leica's engineers, working closely with the Sigma and or Panasonic, didn't come up with the designs in the 1st place? I don't know...I don't think anyone knows except them.

Maybe try one before you start complaining (Not you in particular, I mean in general)

These new lenses ARE different. They feel different, they're build is different and they are built by Leica. That's good enough for me to at least give them a shot.

[rsh]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

The APO Telyt 280 4.0 plus the APO extender 1.4 was my standard wildlife lens in the nineties until I replaced by the 105-280 R + 1.4x which was far more flexible and still very .very   good. 

I agree with you on the 280 Apo Telyt.  It was a a stunning lens for me and it lost little with the 1.4 or 2x Apo Extenders.   Doug Herr’s wildlife photographs with the 280 and the DMR were incredible. 

I am exceedingly pleased with the 90-280 Vario Apo on the SL2-S.  Whether or not it is as good as the 280 was, well I cannot compare, but like you and the 105-280, I love the flexibility.

I am all for the new 100-400.  I have owned many R Lenses in the past that were not made by Leica that were fabulous - the 80-200 Vario Elmar R and the 35-70 Vario Elmar to name two.  If at some point I need a 400 plus focal length, I will purchase the 100-400 and 1.4 extender without hesitation.  Even if the optics are the same as the Sigma, I am certain the build quality is superior.

For everyone reading this, please be kind in your posts and respect others.  This is a great forum for all of us who love photography and using Leica.  That said, it is not the equipment that makes a great photo, it is the photographer.  The equipment is only the tool.  Those of us who own and use Leica are extremely fortunate.  The newer and less expensive offerings for the SL Line will make it possible for others with less cash to spend  to purchase Leica as well.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by rsh