What to use above 35mm - always a dilemma...

[newtoleica]

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Context - returning to M after a few years break shooting film with Olympus OM. Have used quite a few M lenses over the years (always Leica). Have an M7 and an M10P. Always buy used and try to keep the total capital cost of equipment under £15k. Street photography.

I do street mainly and like to get in quite close so 35mm is my 'standard' (35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE) and I shoot a lot at 24mm. I don't like 28mm as it's neither here nor there - 21 is too wide/distorted. Having owned both the 24 Elmarit and Summilux in the past and been through all my images I see that almost always I shoot in the 2.8-f4 range and images at 24/1.4 would actually have been better on the 35. So need to get a 24 Elmarit (6 bit as I will forget to reset it!) Big dilemma with the higher focal length range though.

50 is a short crop from 35, but 50 allows a short crop to 75. The summilux 50 renders nicely but can be a bit busy with high contrast backgrounds. The 50 APO is amazing but will break the budget  (£2.5k max) even used.

75 has very poorly defined frame lines and I tend to 'default' to the 50 ones when I'm absorbed. The APO summicron 75 renders really nicely though and is reasonable to focus accurately

90? the Elmarit 90 renders beautifully (and its cheap) but I find hitting focus reliably quite hit and miss and the view is very small in the RF. Getting a Visioflex gets away from the rangefinder concept and feels 'clunky' 

So what to do? Save up longer and get a 50 APO? Just ignore the frame line issue and get a 75 Apo again? I've owned all these lenses mentioned, sometimes several times and sold them on as they weren't working for me but to return as nothing else did. It's only about 20% of my images but when you can't get closer or want to do a closer in portrait style the 35 doesn't do alone. 

Suggestions?

Looking for that elusive 6 bit coded elmarit 24 at the moment....... (UK)

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[Jeff S]

I prefer the 50 Summilux ASPH.

Jeff

[Anbaric]

15 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

I've owned all these lenses mentioned, sometimes several times and sold them on as they weren't working for me but to return as nothing else did. It's only about 20% of my images but when you can't get closer or want to do a closer in portrait style the 35 doesn't do alone.

As you've already tried the obvious possibilities, I'm not sure we can do more than share our own preferences. For me, a 35 and 50 are quite different and I wouldn't be without either. After that, I'd go straight to a 90, though of course the 75 has many fans. Which 50 Summilux did you have? If you've only tried the ASPH, you might prefer the rendering of the E43 v2 (a pretty special lens, which I have) or the optically similar but closer focusing E46 version. At the other end of the range, the lack of framelines puts me off getting a 24mm in M mount. Here, heretically, I'd stick with the SLR...

[pippy]

33 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

...The summilux 50 renders nicely but can be a bit busy with high contrast backgrounds. The 50 APO is amazing but will break the budget......even used...Suggestions?

If the relatively high contrast is what you don't particularly like of the Summilux (I'm guessing you are talking about the ASPH?) you might prefer the rendering of the older pre-ASPH version. It will also come-in within your budget. If you fancy testing one here's a link to a late example of the v3 which is currently on offer in a central London dealership;

https://www.apertureuk.com/leica-50mm-f14-summilux-m-a3012403.html

Philip.

[newtoleica]

2 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

As you've already tried the obvious possibilities, I'm not sure we can do more than share our own preferences. For me, a 35 and 50 are quite different and I wouldn't be without either. After that, I'd go straight to a 90, though of course the 75 has many fans. Which 50 Summilux did you have? If you've only tried the ASPH, you might prefer the rendering of the E43 v2 (a pretty special lens, which I have) or the optically similar but closer focusing E46 version. At the other end of the range, the lack of framelines puts me off getting a 24mm in M mount. Here, heretically, I'd stick with the SLR...

Thanks, yes it was the ASPH. I should look at other 50s.

Re the 24 - I can frame adequately estimating a little wider than what's shown in the VF and it works fine. Framing isn't so critical in street anyway.....

 

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Use your 35 and think of a crop if needed.

[dpitt]

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I would try the Macro Elmar 90. It is easy to focus and beats any 90mm even wide open at F4. In fact I think it is one of Leica's best M lenses. Maybe it is something like the APO Summicron 50 for the short tele range. As  a bonus it is very light and compact. With an M11 it would be like having a 90 - 250 zoom (by cropping) For sure a range your 35 and 50 will not handle.

35 - 90 might be the new standard two lens setup with these high resolution sensors.

[RexGig0]

My Summilux-M 50mm ASPH was my first Leica M lens, and the major reason that I added the Leica M system, almost five years ago. I do shoot far more images with 35mm lenses, but the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH is my favorite M lens.

I am having a love-hate relationship with my APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH, which I added in 2022; trying to love it more.  I recently acquired a Visoflex 020, so that I can conduct some controlled tests, to see whether I am going to be dependent on a Visoflex, to shoot at focal lengths longer than 50mm. The magnification ratio of this lens makes it a compelling choice for shooting at close range, and I am starting to like short telephoto for landscapes.

Regarding “that elusive 6 bit coded elmarit 24,” I started using the Elmar-M 24mm ASPH, last year, and am really liking it. The Elmar 24mm has adversely affected the amount of time I use an Elmarit-M 28mm lens.

[fil-m]

The often forgotten "but cheap" (by Leica standards) 50mm standard Summicron (non-APO) is an excellent lens IMO. I have the quite similar 50/2.4 Summarit which is no longer made but I've also used the Summicron in the past. They are quite similar in image rendering, the Summarit being slower but more compact.

You can buy a used sample in great condition and use it. You should always be able to sell it later with little loss to buy the APO version (if need be) once you are able to afford it.

[SrMi]

A 75mm, e.g., Summarit f/2.4, pairs well with a 35mm. While 50mm frame lines work better, 50mm seems too close to 35mm.

[pippy]

3 hours ago, fil-m said:

...The often forgotten "but cheap" (by Leica standards) 50mm standard Summicron (non-APO) is an excellent lens IMO...

If the OP desires slightly lower contrast than the ASPH Summilux; excellent overall sharpness and an f2.0 max. aperture isn't an issue (I notice that they wrote "I see that almost always I shoot in the 2.8-f4 range") the 'regular' 50mm Summicron is almost impossible to beat.

Certainly Leica, themselves, seem to think so as they, to this day, are still using the same optical formula for the non-APO 50mm f2.0 as was put into production in 1979 with the introduction of the "v4" Summicron which has since been carried-over with the current "v5".

I have a very strong dislike of 'Self-Affirmation Syndrome' but, as it happens, my own Go-To 50mm is a v4 Summicron. For my usual shooting requirements it is the perfect choice.

Philip.

[Ouroboros]

8 hours ago, newtoleica said:

 

So what to do? Save up longer and get a 50 APO? Just ignore the frame line issue and get a 75 Apo again? I've owned all these lenses mentioned, sometimes several times and sold them on as they weren't working for me but to return as nothing else did. It's only about 20% of my images but when you can't get closer or want to do a closer in portrait style the 35 doesn't do alone. 

Suggestions?

 

Only you can decide and all anyone else can do is list their own preferences.

Depending on where I'm going and what I intend to do, here's mine (all summicrons):

28, 50 & 90mm

28 & 50mm

28 & 75mm 

35 & 75mm 

35 & 90mm

Otherwise, I use my feet (barring proximity to cliff edges and motorway traffic).

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Ouroboros

[rramesh]

Consider another route. Get a Leica CL or a Fujifilm X. They are APS-C, so your 35 lens will become 50. Plus now you have a second body.

[colonel]

not sure that 75 frame lines are any difference in accuracy to 50mm

I find focusing at 90mm fine, you can always try live view

I would recommend a second hand summarit 75mm or 90mm. they are very reasonable and very sharp. and it sounds like you dont need more then f2.4/2.5, which is ok to focus IMHO

[newtoleica]

With respect adding an APSC body exactly the route I don’t want to go down. Have been shooting Olympus OM lenses on an alternative Sony A7R. The change in haptics and focus method inhibits my creativity. Very happy with my M7 and M10P pair. 
 

Will look at the rendering of the non APO summicron 50. Rendering is my prime reason for liking a lens, pop, clarity and soft bokeh, no double lines and distractions. It’s like choosing paint and brushes. 

[eyeheartny]

If you want an APO lens, get the Voigtlander 50 APO-Lanthar. Excellent lens and very affordable. 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, newtoleica said:

Will look at the rendering of the non APO summicron 50. Rendering is my prime reason for liking a lens, pop, clarity and soft bokeh, no double lines and distractions. It’s like choosing paint and brushes. 

And, like paints and brushes, the user remains the key factor. One learns to adapt/avoid conditions that produce undesirable results and to use tools for creative intent.  I used the 50 Summicron for decades before switching to the Summilux ASPH.  Each is a superbly capable lens, with the latter providing a bit more rendering flexibility for me due to available speed. The  Summicron requires a bit more attention to conditions prompting flare.  
 

In the end, each lens is capable of producing widely diverse results in a total shooting to final print display workflow; otherwise we’d each produce similar results just because of our chosen gear.  Thankfully not.

Jeff

[newtoleica]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:36 PM, Jeff S said:

And, like paints and brushes, the user remains the key factor. One learns to adapt/avoid conditions that produce undesirable results and to use tools for creative intent.  I used the 50 Summicron for decades before switching to the Summilux ASPH.  Each is a superbly capable lens, with the latter providing a bit more rendering flexibility for me due to available speed. The  Summicron requires a bit more attention to conditions prompting flare.  
 

In the end, each lens is capable of producing widely diverse results in a total shooting to final print display workflow; otherwise we’d each produce similar results just because of our chosen gear.  Thankfully not.

Jeff

Yes of course, however when the right lens comes together with the right conditions it adds that something extra that lifts an image from ‘nice’ to ‘ohh nice’. I do street but in a certain way that’s my own. On the street only so much can be controlled (position, anticipation, observation) that getting gear that is small fast and like an extension of your hand, and can be relied upon to render nicely under a very wide range of conditions can make the difference between coming back with a couple of keepers or none.

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[grahamc]

For street I’d recommend the very nice 50:2 v4 with focus tab, particularly if you are able to try it first and the copy has a nice light focus  dampening.  This lens has all the qualities you mentioned, is light and I’d rather it for street then the summiluxes.   

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, newtoleica said:

Yes of course, however when the right lens comes together with the right conditions it adds that something extra that lifts an image from ‘nice’ to ‘ohh nice’. I do street but in a certain way that’s my own. On the street only so much can be controlled (position, anticipation, observation) that getting gear that is small fast and like an extension of your hand, and can be relied upon to render nicely under a very wide range of conditions can make the difference between coming back with a couple of keepers or none.

I can say that about all my gear; sometimes magic happens, and sometimes not, for myriad reasons. I typically try to find a way to demo or rent gear before purchasing and/or buy from a reputable dealer with return policy/ warranty. Forum surveys never provided me with answers regarding personal gear preferences, including handling, controls and ergonomics, etc, or how a particular piece of gear fits into my own shooting, editing and print style and workflow.  
 

I did this a while back with the 50 APO M Summicron (both standard and black chrome versions, each for an extended period) to compare against my long used 50 Summilux ASPH.  In the end, I preferred the Summilux for a variety of reasons (unrelated to cost), none of which could have been determined by outside sources. 
 

Jeff