Advice needed - Which older 50mm summicron can compare to the v5 in sharpness and resolution?

[franzschuier]

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Sorry, somehow this has been discussed, but not directly. So:

My main setup is an M-A with the 50mm v5 Cron. I had a 35mm ASPH Cron on my second body and did like resolution and sharpness, BUT not the 35mm.
Yes sharpness is mostly user dependent, but I have a constant film, development and scan or print setup, that I dont change. And I am VERY happy with the 50mm v5 Cron results.
I tried the new 50mm Elmar-M and it was OKish, but I can see the difference just glancing at the scans or prints and I wasn't happy. 😉

Plus my second body is chrome, so I was thinking to get a DR or late collapsible cron for that body. Its Impossible for me to test these lenses,
so is there a fellow (Film shooter) that has and uses both lenses and has an opinion on this?

And yes, I could get a older v5 chrome or a summilux or the chrome APO, but id rather keep my funds for more film :-).

Thanks!

Oh, and flare and contrast is not as important to me in my typical shooting scenarios.

Edited February 12, 2023 by franzschuier

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[pippy]

Your v5 Summicron shares exactly the same optics as the earlier 1979 - 1994 v4 and this lens was available in chrome finish. If you want something which renders the same as your v5 but is slightly older it would be (IMO) the obvious choice.

Philip.

[grahamc]

I agree with Phillip that v4 chrome would be a good choice and match.  The v3 is one of Leica’s bargains in my opinion, and it’s my favourite 50 cron.  It is very close to the v4/5 but a more classic look.  You may or may not be able to pick out the images shot with that lens versus your v5. 
 

The DR / rigid you certainly would as it’s a different look. The rigid has incredible resolution and I can usually pick the images I’ve shot with it. 

[dpitt]

17 hours ago, franzschuier said:

....

Plus my second body is chrome, so I was thinking to get a DR or late collapsible cron for that body. Its Impossible for me to test these lenses,

Oh, and flare and contrast is not as important to me in my typical shooting scenarios.

If contrast is not important, any Summicron 50 collapsible could add something different but really pleasing to the table. The form factor when collapsed allows for pocketing the M with a mounted lens, which the v5 can not do.

And shot wide open it is more of a portrait lens. Stopped down it becomes very sharp but with different micro contrast look. Contrast is lower than modern lenses. Colors are different too, it has more green, where the v5 has more red/orange look. The Summicron 50 Rigid shares the color look, but looks more clean and sharp wide open and of course has the same form factor as the v5.

The hardest thing with the Summicron collapsible is the soft front element. It scratches very easily so 90% of them have cleaning marks. Finding the best sample you can and give it a CLA is all you can do, and then put a filter on and never take it off.

Edited February 13, 2023 by dpitt

[franzschuier]

Thnx guys! Good input to consider my choices. 🙏

[ocean2059]

In my own user experience, if I'm only going to shoot color film, I will definitely go with v4/v5 as they have the best contrast and micro contrast wide open. If I am shooting digital, then v1 (collapsible) and v2 (rigid) will be more interesting choices since they have better resolution and character but with lower contrast wide open, and contrast can be added in in post-processing. For digital monochrom M bodies, I will definitely go for with v1 or v2 as they are much more interested lenses compared with v4/v5. Personally, I like the v3 the best as it has the similar resolution of v1 and v2 wide open (although with a bit smaller image area) and its contrast and character is similar to v4/v5 (with a bit lower macro contrast).  From your comments that Elmar-M 50/2.8 is not 'sharp' enough, maybe a more contrast, especially more micro contrast lens should be in the consideration. If that's the case, Zeiss 50/2 Planar ZM will be a better choice. It has more micro contrast than the v4/v5. You do have choices. 

[franzschuier]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb ocean2059:

In my own user experience, if I'm only going to shoot color film, I will definitely go with v4/v5 as they have the best contrast and micro contrast wide open. If I am shooting digital, then v1 (collapsible) and v2 (rigid) will be more interesting choices since they have better resolution and character but with lower contrast wide open, and contrast can be added in in post-processing. For digital monochrom M bodies, I will definitely go for with v1 or v2 as they are much more interested lenses compared with v4/v5. Personally, I like the v3 the best as it has the similar resolution of v1 and v2 wide open (although with a bit smaller image area) and its contrast and character is similar to v4/v5 (with a bit lower macro contrast).  From your comments that Elmar-M 50/2.8 is not 'sharp' enough, maybe a more contrast, especially more micro contrast lens should be in the consideration. If that's the case, Zeiss 50/2 Planar ZM will be a better choice. It has more micro contrast than the v4/v5. You do have choices. 

I only shoot Tri-X So i didnt think contrast is that important for the look i am getting with my current A Cam M-A and v5. But maybe I should test the Planar, that should be possible.  but then its not a leica and it doesnt have the e39 filter Thread and I always use Filters. Thnx.

Edited February 13, 2023 by franzschuier

[ocean2059]

Technically speaking, sharpness is defined as the acuity, or contrast, between the edges of an object in an image. A more contrasty lens will give an image with perceived 'sharpness.' Therefore, when you mentioned that you want to have more sharpness in an image, contrast of a lens plays a role. You will find the v1/v2 including the Elmar-M 50 lack of sharpness wide open because they have less contrast in their design. On the other hand, if a lens has too much contrast, it may loose some shadow details. The v1/v2 has a bit more resolution and with better shadow details and that is why many shooting digital, especially monochrome bodies, are really like using them. 

[franzschuier]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb ocean2059:

Technically speaking, sharpness is defined as the acuity, or contrast, between the edges of an object in an image. A more contrasty lens will give an image with perceived 'sharpness.' Therefore, when you mentioned that you want to have more sharpness in an image, contrast of a lens plays a role. You will find the v1/v2 including the Elmar-M 50 lack of sharpness wide open because they have less contrast in their design. On the other hand, if a lens has too much contrast, it may loose some shadow details. The v1/v2 has a bit more resolution and with better shadow details and that is why many shooting digital, especially monochrome bodies, are really like using them. 

Thanks! I mostly shoot outside at f4-8. So I didn't use the Elmar at wide open. Could it still be the micro contrast I am seeing in the negatives and prints?

[shirubadanieru]

There’s no vintage Summicron that matches the V5 micro contrast, sharpness, etc. If you are looking for that, keep the V5 (or get the V4, same formula, different body design).

The other Summicrons are great, I actually prefer the V1 (collapsible) and V2 (rigid) to the V5 by far…because the Bokeh and rendering is more pleasing to me VS the ‘boring’ perfect V5. I shoot portraits / street mostly, but if you shoot landscapes then having a perfect lens works best. That being said, for landscapes you probably wanna use F8 or so, which at that point all Summicrons look the same to me (all 50mm Leica lenses actually look the same to me at F8).

If you want something similar to the V5, the Elmar-M is super sharp too, probably the closest in that sense to the V5 summicron. You also have the summarit, and the asph Summilux that can match it and provide different renderings to the Summicron wide open. 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by shirubadanieru

[wizard]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb shirubadanieru:

That being said, for landscapes you probably wanna use F8 or so, which at that point all Summicrons look the same to me

+1

 

vor 6 Minuten schrieb shirubadanieru:

If you want something similar to the V5, the Elmar-M is super sharp too

I agree, both my Elmar-M 50 lenses (one silver chrome, one black chrome) are extremely sharp and have very good contrast, too. 

[lct]

Elmar's are triplets folks. Not the same IQ as double gauss Summicron. The Elmar-M 50/2.8 is a high contrast lens with a bit less resolution, flare, CA and focus shift than Summicron v5. For a similar rendition as the latter's better choose a late Summicron v4 as early ones (with "tiger paw" focus tab) have a less efficient coating. For those on a budget, another candidate could be the Konica Hexanon 50/2 which is a clone of the Summicron v5 for a fraction of the price.

Edited February 14, 2023 by lct

[Ouroboros]

3 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

....if you shoot landscapes then having a perfect lens works best. That being said, for landscapes you probably wanna use F8 or so....

 

 

Not always and not all landscapes work 'best' with a formulaic approach.  I use four different 50mm lenses for landscapes; summicron safari edition, elmar-m f2.8, c-sonnar f1.5, Heliar Classic f1.5.  Each is different, from excellent full frame rendering (summicron safari and elmar-m), gorgeous separation with differential focus (c-sonnar) to unique and sometimes unpredictable rendering (Heliar Classic).  It all depends on what my aim is with the final print.

And sometimes I don't want to use f8.  As an example, the image below which I made yesterday evening was with the summicron safari ('v5') wide open at f2, which also seems to dispel the over-egged forum wisdom that summicrons flare at the first hint of a point light source anywhere either side of the back of the photographer's head.  I took the shot at full aperture because I have put a new Hoya filter on the lens and wanted to see how it copes in sunrise and sunset situations. No complaints with Hoya's multi-coating!

The point is, you don't need to stick to 'rules' in photography, especially landscapes, and there are a lot of creative choice options covered by Leica and CV M mount 35mm & 50mm lenses. 

My advice for @franzschuier: a v5 summicron or 50mm elmar-m f2.8 are great choices and either one will serve you very well as a general purpose 50mm.

There is a reason why the 50mm summicron has been so long in production.  M10-R bp, 50mm summicron safari.  Aperture @f2, focus at infinity:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[shirubadanieru]

35 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Not always and not all landscapes work 'best' with a formulaic approach.  I use four different 50mm lenses for landscapes; summicron safari edition, elmar-m f2.8, c-sonnar f1.5, Heliar Classic f1.5.  Each is different, from excellent full frame rendering (summicron safari and elmar-m), gorgeous separation with differential focus (c-sonnar) to unique and sometimes unpredictable rendering (Heliar Classic).  It all depends on what my aim is with the final print.

And sometimes I don't want to use f8.  As an example, the image below which I made yesterday evening was with the summicron safari ('v5') wide open at f2, which also seems to dispel the over-egged forum wisdom that summicrons flare at the first hint of a point light source anywhere either side of the back of the photographer's head.  I took the shot at full aperture because I have put a new Hoya filter on the lens and wanted to see how it copes in sunrise and sunset situations. No complaints with Hoya's multi-coating!

The point is, you don't need to stick to 'rules' in photography, especially landscapes, and there are a lot of creative choice options covered by Leica and CV M mount 35mm & 50mm lenses. 

My advice for @franzschuier: a v5 summicron or 50mm elmar-m f2.8 are great choices and either one will serve you very well as a general purpose 50mm.

There is a reason why the 50mm summicron has been so long in production.  M10-R bp, 50mm summicron safari.  Aperture @f2, focus at infinity:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Of course! I've seen people shooting landscapes at f1.4 with pre lux 35 & it looks great and dreamy. Just stating that if you use it mostly stopped down to f8, even the first Leica lens from 100y ago, Elmar 50 f3.5, is almost indistinguishable from the summicron v5. Most difference will come at f1.4〜f4, and in this area I've shared what could be good alternatives to the cron v5

Edited February 14, 2023 by shirubadanieru

[franzschuier]

Thanks guys! 
Maybe i dream them up, but i do see differences on TRI-X bewteen Pics i shoot on f5.6 and f8 with the newer elmar 50mm 2.8 and the summicron v5.

I think it´ll be a chrome v5 (found some used copies from around 2000). Waiting for my M2 to come back from service and then ill get one. 

[grahamc]

6 hours ago, franzschuier said:

Thanks guys! 
Maybe i dream them up, but i do see differences on TRI-X bewteen Pics i shoot on f5.6 and f8 with the newer elmar 50mm 2.8 and the summicron v5.

I think it´ll be a chrome v5 (found some used copies from around 2000). Waiting for my M2 to come back from service and then ill get one. 

Yes the Elmar-M is much sharper ? It has a much different look IMO 

[Ko.Fe.]

V5 optics were something not really impressive for me on film. Completely sterile on BW film... Among many 50ies I have tried it was most suffering from the focus shifts and prone to flare.

If BW is not concern, Rigid (version of DR) was most sharp from first to v5 optics of Crons I have tried. It was less lifeless as v5 optics on BW.

Best BW for me was Collapsible Cron and Elmar-M 50 2.8 (chrome version is available). I didn't use collapsible Cron with color film, nor Elamar-M either.   

Both where sharp enough on 8x10 prints.

Also, Summarit-M 50 2.4 is available in silver and it is sharp lens with nice rendering on bw and color, which is not overpriced as old Crons. And its build, handling is totally awesome comparing to older Crons and Elmar-M (IMO).

[shirubadanieru]

9 hours ago, franzschuier said:

Thanks guys! 
Maybe i dream them up, but i do see differences on TRI-X bewteen Pics i shoot on f5.6 and f8 with the newer elmar 50mm 2.8 and the summicron v5.

I think it´ll be a chrome v5 (found some used copies from around 2000). Waiting for my M2 to come back from service and then ill get one. 

So the final answer to this is…. Another v5 cron? 😢

Edited February 16, 2023 by shirubadanieru

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