M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Prosophos]

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What a mess.

Leica please get your act together.  I've been looking to get back into the fold (really miss rangefinder shooting, which is my preferred way of photographing) but this non-stop M11 freezing saga is difficult to overlook.

—Peter.

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[Herr Barnack]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

If it were a hardware issue, why are there cameras out there that do not have the problem? The same for software. It means that it is a usage issue, which could in theory be resolved by making the software more tolerant. Or it is a matter of tolerances, which makes the problem virtually insoluble.

Every Leica retailer should have a freeze detector.

For the buyers, not the cameras.

The new & used M11s would be kept separate from the rest of the Leica cameras.  The prospective buyer would have to walk through a detector arch, similar to a metal detector at the airport.  If the alarm goes off, he/she is diverted to the non-M11 display area.

Edited February 4, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[Malabito]

4 hours ago, ianforber said:

If you have the money, buy new from a reputable Leica boutique to get the additional support. You can take it back to them and see if they can solve the problem and, if not, get them to loan you a replacement while the camera is away for repairs. Personally, I’ve had no freezes or other problems and I suspect that’s down to how I use the camera - slowly and with settings well within the norm. As well as a Leica lens, I also use a Voigtlander non-6 bit coded lens and that doesn’t trouble the camera either. 

yep i think this is the approach i will go. Perhaps not a new one, (due to cost) but one bought used from a leica store. They are priced h bit higher then when bought from an independent user, but they come with 1 year guarantee and i even seen in some cases with 2, (here in Europe).

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

If it were a hardware issue, why are there cameras out there that do not have the problem? The same for software. It means that it is a usage issue, which could in theory be resolved by making the software more tolerant. Or it is a matter of tolerances, which makes the problem virtually insoluble.

So, all the hardware is the same?  No variability? So, going back a year or two, every CCD sensor in the M9 cameras was faulty, every M8 LCD got coffee stain?  Every SL bricked like mine did? And every M10-D electronics failed?

You might be right about usage issues; but then why blame the user?  They leave the camera in standby or WiFi on too long?  Use a combination of bluetooth, WiFi and Auto detection of lens coding or ISO which overwhelms the hardware by overheating or which falls into a software hole?  Or perhaps they try to take a photo too quickly after turning on, or try to review an image while it’s still writing?

If you’re right, maybe Leica should just issue an advisory - this camera comes with these features, but we recommend you don’t use them.

[jaapv]

24 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, all the hardware is the same?  No variability? So, going back a year or two, every CCD sensor in the M9 cameras was faulty, every M8 LCD got coffee stain?  Every SL bricked like mine did? And every M10-D electronics failed?

Never heard about manufacturing variations and tolerance spans? And statistics? Recall the M8 in spring that had a series of sudden deaths? An out-of-tolerance transistor was the culprit. 

The suggestion you make about being too fast to take the shot sounds quite reasonable, that would indicate a timing issue in the firmware, OTOH it would be quite simple for Leica to make the same deduction and it would have been fixed by now. It must be far less simplistic.

Who is blaming the user? Certainly not me. Gear should accept all reasonable use. See my remark about the acceptance of the software. Your suggestion to Leica is a bit umm... unusual.

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Never heard about manufacturing variations and tolerance spans? And statistics? Recall the M8 in spring that had a series of sudden deaths? An out-of-tolerance transistor was the culprit. 

The suggestion you make about being too fast to take the shot sounds quite reasonable, that would indicate a timing issue in the firmware, OTOH it would be quite simple for Leica to make the same deduction and it would have been fixed by now. It must be far less simplistic.

Who is blaming the user? Certainly not me. Gear should accept all reasonable use. See my remark about the acceptance of the software. Your suggestion to Leica is a bit umm... unusual.

So it could be either a hardware or software issue, and responsibility firmly rests with Leica.  I think we agree.

Note to self - you know full well irony does not work across cultures and the internet … 😋

Edited February 4, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[Herr Barnack]

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Happened to find this on YouTube today:

 

[Herr Barnack]

Another one from the same gent -

 

[jaapv]

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

.

Note to self - you know full well irony does not work across cultures and the internet … 😋

Which led to the invention of emoticons. 

[lct]

11 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Happened to find this on YouTube today:

«disable auto lens detection and allow the lens to be detected manually»

Is it possible with coded lenses under firmware 2.0.2?

[DadDadDaddyo]

From the perspective of a user whose M11 and M11M do not freeze I have to say the impact of the whole tempest has been to provide me with a couple of tailor-made opportunities to acquire Leica equipment.

My M11 and M11M came to me as Open Box items from one of the large web/brick&mortar camera stores. They were each returned to that store after a new purchase by someone amidst the kerfuffle. 

Both have been working perfectly since arrival.

To any prospective buyers: check out the Open Box offerings from the major/reputable Authorized Dealers. Such folks have robust Return Policies. You really can't go wrong. 

There are good buys to be found!

[Al Brown]

I guess we found the Achilles' corroded coffee stain of M11. The camera that will go into the annals of history as the "Freezerator".

[Derbyshire Man]

Pretty simple, buy an M11-P save images to internal. Not one single freeze and with 256gb and simple Mac transfer I’m losing nothing.  Save to INT & card seems ok but safe to card only with my Kingston v90 = regular freezes. I’m ok with that, not perfect but no issues in real world usage. 

[Smogg]

Apparently, Leica is not ready for large financial losses by launching a recall campaign, especially when it comes to such an icon as the M series camera. Regular freezes and loss of few damaged frames should have led to a hotfix, but since this did not happen, the problem most likely is in the hardware. Realizing that few users would want to lose their camera for a few months (the usual service time for Leica), the company chose a strategy of slow, useless updates with the goal of allowing any warranty periods to expire and for users to live in hope. We have actually been waiting for reliable firmware for 2 years and as a result we will only get it together with m12, and until then we should not use the SD slot as the main one (thank God this slot at least works in copy mode from the built-in memory). We can say all we want that Leica is a small company, but 2 years is an absurdly long time even for a small company.

[IkarusJohn]

When the M12 comes, let’s see if Leica offers an “upgrade” like they did with the M9 …

[colint544]

I cling to the hope that Leica will eventually do the right thing, the way they did with the corroding sensor issue on the M9 series. It was the same back then - people felt fobbed off, Leica weren't listening to the growing complaints, etc. They began by replacing sensors - although with exactly the same corrosion-prone type - but eventually caved in and redesigned the sensor glass, offering the service free to all and sundry.

I sent my M9 Monochrom back to Wetzlar in 2016 because I had dropped it onto the pavement and knocked the rangefinder out of alignment. Whilst it was there, the said they had spotted corrosion on the sensor (I had never noticed this) and replaced it with the new type. They also serviced the camera, and re-adjusted the rangefinder. I was very grateful for this, especially since it didn't cost me a penny. Leica even paid for the postage both ways.

Perhaps Leica are a different company today. The M9 sensor business gained them my brand loyalty, but must have cost them a lot of money. Maybe they are more profit-driven now. I suppose we shall see. I've already contributed to this thread. I have an M11, purchased nearly a year ago. It doesn't -so far - freeze, but I find aperture priority and auto ISO unreliable. They give me random wildly overexposed frames, so I tend to stick to manual exposure. Not ideal really.

[ianforber]

I’m just glad I got a good one. I suspect I’ll keep it for a while after the M12 comes out as there will surely be complaints of freezes and weird behavioural then too until firmware catches up with fixes. 

[Derbyshire Man]

35 minutes ago, ianforber said:

I’m just glad I got a good one. I suspect I’ll keep it for a while after the M12 comes out as there will surely be complaints of freezes and weird behavioural then too until firmware catches up with fixes. 

Do you write all of your files to the external SD card only Ian?

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[Al Brown]

14 hours ago, Smogg said:

Apparently, Leica is not ready for large financial losses by launching a recall campaign, especially when it comes to such an icon as the M series camera. Regular freezes and loss of few damaged frames should have led to a hotfix, but since this did not happen, the problem most likely is in the hardware. Realizing that few users would want to lose their camera for a few months (the usual service time for Leica), the company chose a strategy of slow, useless updates with the goal of allowing any warranty periods to expire and for users to live in hope. We have actually been waiting for reliable firmware for 2 years and as a result we will only get it together with m12, and until then we should not use the SD slot as the main one (thank God this slot at least works in copy mode from the built-in memory). We can say all we want that Leica is a small company, but 2 years is an absurdly long time even for a small company.

Very well concieved and an interesting observation. I hope users are definitely not willing to put up with compromises on a 9000 euro camera and cut on their UX because there is a glitch that is not addressed. As you said, it must be a harware issue. A video above in post #1816 suggets an issue with 6-bit reader, a very interesting observation and a repeatable process to recall the problem. Maybe something to look into in Wetzlar HQ.

[Al Brown]

9 hours ago, colint544 said:

Leica even paid for the postage both ways.

How did you get them to do that after you dropped the camera (not a warranty issue)? I have sent my M to Leica in 2016 and several times after, but they have NEVER paid postage for the way there, only for retour.