M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Guest]

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1 minute ago, lct said:

..... Of course, if i put a coded lens in the meantime, the camera will give priority to the code then. ....

This is Qlan's point. Lens detection is never truly off, independent of whatever you set the menu choice to be. 

[Qlan]

23 minutes ago, lct said:

You mean when lens detection is set to auto i guess, which is not the most relevant setting for uncoded lenses if you ask me. Would be interesting to know what happens when lens detection is set to off instead.

No, that's when it is set to Off.

[lct]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

No, that's when it is set to Off.

Then facts happen, as far as my gear is concerned, as i described above. Works with all my uncoded lenses 100% of the time. 

[Qlan]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Then facts happen, as far as my gear is concerned, as i described above. Works with all my uncoded lenses 100% of the time. 

What I'm saying is: yes, the camera will show you Lens Detection stays Off, but that's not proving nothing is happening in the backend. Do you understand my explanation and others?

[lct]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

What I'm saying is: yes, the camera will show you Lens Detection stays Off, but that's not proving nothing is happening in the backend. Do you understand my explanation and others?

Excuse me @Qlan i'm only interested in practical solutions. Must be my lawyer's background perhaps i don't know. In any case, i have zero issue with my M11 now, i tried to explain how if not why, i did what i could to help but it is 01:00 a.m. here, so it's time for me to take a well-deserved rest. Happy snaps .

[UliWer]

I think we had a similar - and simpler ... - discussion some months ago here:

The behavior of the M11 to activate lens detection even when it is set to "OFF" seems odd. With the M10 lens detection stays off when you set it to "OFF" even if you attach a coded lens. The "workaround" proposed by lct to use a specific profile might be a solution though it still looks like a "workaround".

The other thread ended with a proposal to Leica to change this. As we havn't heard anything new from Leica's side since then it might be helpful to renew the proposal to go back to the "old system", when "OFF" was really off for any lenses, be they coded or not. 

[lct]

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6 hours ago, UliWer said:

The other thread ended with a proposal to Leica to change this. As we havn't heard anything new from Leica's side since then it might be helpful to renew the proposal to go back to the "old system", when "OFF" was really off for any lenses, be they coded or not.

I can understand why some people have difficulty hand coding their uncoded lenses but i understand even better those who, like me, have a majority of coded or hand coded lenses. I would forget too easily that i have set lens detection off and would miss some photos with coded lenses this way. I want my Leica cameras to go on reading automatically the code of my lenses, without having to remember how i happened to set my uncoded ones previously so i prefer the current system which works perfectly for me sorry. YMMV.

Edited February 2, 2023 by lct

[Kiwimac]

I read the M11 manual. 
 

It’s a bit ambiguous. 
It says this:

 

“Lens detection can optionally be disabled completely. That makes sense if the recording will not be automatically corrected (DNG and JPG) to maintain the characteristic recording features of a lens.”

 

 And this:

 

“The camera will automatically set the correct lens type when a Leica M lens with 6-bit encoding is used. No manual setting will be required. The camera will switch to  Auto  automatically when an encoded Leica M lens is attached, regardless of the original lens setting.”

 

 I’m not clear if turning it off as per the first quote prevents the behaviour described in the second quote. 

[lct]

1 hour ago, Kiwimac said:

I’m not clear if turning it off as per the first quote prevents the behaviour described in the second quote.

Leica gives priority to coded lenses so the second quote prevails, fortunately to me and unfortunately to my distinguished opponents here .

[Kiwimac]

20 minutes ago, lct said:

Leica gives priority to coded lenses so the second quote prevails, fortunately to me and unfortunately to my distinguished opponents here .

Ah. I presume the same is true in the M10's. Makes sense I guess.

 

They could word it more clearly though I think!!

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kiwimac:

Ah. I presume the same is true in the M10's.

No, there is a difference: If you switch lens detection off on the M10, it stays off, even if you attach a coded lens. On the M11 a coded lens reactivates lens detection, and uses the code. 

This priority for coded lenses is good, if you change from an uncoded to a coded lens. You don‘t have to bother to switch lens detection to auto again. But going the other way round, the camera still uses the code of the prior coded lens when you switch from a coded to an uncoded lens - even if lens detection is set to off, which is not very logical. For a simpleton like me, „OFF“ should mean „OFF“ and not „AUTO in case of a code“. 

And there is the theory that the camera always „searches“ a lens code and if it doesn‘t find any it freezes. 

[Kiwimac]

6 minutes ago, UliWer said:

No, there is a difference: If you switch lens detection off on the M10, it stays off, even if you attach a coded lens. On the M11 a coded lens reactivates lens detection, and uses the code. 

This priority for coded lenses is good, if you change from an uncoded to a coded lens. You don‘t have to bother to switch lens detection to auto again. But going the other way round, the camera still uses the code of the prior coded lens when you switch from a coded to an uncoded lens - even if lens detection is set to off, which is not very logical. For a simpleton like me, „OFF“ should mean „OFF“ and not „AUTO in case of a code“. 

And there is the theory that the camera always „searches“ a lens code and if it doesn‘t find any it freezes. 

Ah. Ok. 
 

I’m inclined to suggest Leica offer the option to make it work either way round simply by checking a box in the menu. 
 

But what do I know?!

[jaapv]

26 minutes ago, UliWer said:

No, there is a difference: If you switch lens detection off on the M10, it stays off, even if you attach a coded lens. On the M11 a coded lens reactivates lens detection, and uses the code. 

This priority for coded lenses is good, if you change from an uncoded to a coded lens. You don‘t have to bother to switch lens detection to auto again. But going the other way round, the camera still uses the code of the prior coded lens when you switch from a coded to an uncoded lens - even if lens detection is set to off, which is not very logical. For a simpleton like me, „OFF“ should mean „OFF“ and not „AUTO in case of a code“. 

And there is the theory that the camera always „searches“ a lens code and if it doesn‘t find any it freezes. 

I don’t quite follow the logic. If you mount an uncoded lens, you have to enter the lens manually anyway. The camera has always remembered the last uncoded lens. Maybe make this a three -way menu item? 

[lct]

41 minutes ago, UliWer said:

But going the other way round, the camera still uses the code of the prior coded lens when you switch from a coded to an uncoded lens - even if lens detection is set to off, which is not very logical

Reason why it doesn't happen . When changing from a coded lens to an uncoded one, on the M11, the camera does not use the code of the prior coded lens. It never does that AFAIK. Either it uses the code of the last lens profile entered manually, if any, or it uses no code at all and lens status remains "Off" or "Uncoded".

Edited February 2, 2023 by lct

[PhilippWe]

New M11 (Jan 2023), only brand new Leica lenses (summilux 35/1.4, summocron 75, SEM 21), FW1.6, no memory card, 3x freeze, battery out - in - ok.

[lct]

37 minutes ago, PhilippWe said:

New M11 (Jan 2023), only brand new Leica lenses (summilux 35/1.4, summocron 75, SEM 21), FW1.6, no memory card, 3x freeze, battery out - in - ok.

Not sure if you are after any advice here but if so, i would do a camera reset, format the internal memory, set up a user profile and see if freezes appear again. If so, i would ask your vendor for a  refund or a replacement of the camera. 

[hdmesa]

21 hours ago, Qlan said:

Hum, no, my whole point is that lens detection is never off, full stop.

 

21 hours ago, lct said:

And my point is lens detection can be off and stay so at will. Never say never .

 

 @lct I think the point is the camera checks for a 6-bit code even if lens detection is off; therefore, any bug related to 6-bit lens detection can affect camera operation regardless of the setting you have set for lens detection.

[lct]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

 

 

 @lct I think the point is the camera checks for a 6-bit code even if lens detection is off; therefore, any bug related to 6-bit lens detection can affect camera operation regardless of the setting you have set for lens detection.

Which bug are you referring to? Can you take an example?

[Guest]

Been reading this for a while now and changed my former more positive opinion regarding this topic.

What bothers me most as an M11 owner, is the loss of reputation of the M11, what someday will result in poor resale values. I´ve had som freezes and am now contacting my dealer for a refund. Talked to another Leica dealer these days who reported lots of M11 being given back to him/Leica by their owners. It's definitely not a small problem. Leica had a year now to solve those issues - if it would have been easy we wouldn't talk about it here anymore. They should remember Audi's TT disaster - they finally took all the cars back to the factory for implementing ESP and aerodynamic changes. That great little car suffered a lot from that those days. 

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[Guest]

Unfortunately I can not quantify it, it was him using this term and telling me a certain number of cameras (10+)were returned. Given that only a few of customers affected by freezes are going the way of returning the camera - my guess is that quite a lot of M11 owners are affected in total. Sad to say, but It's a mess in my opinion. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by wellknown