M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[MikeMyers]

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1 hour ago, Rabunmoss said:

Like others have said, I would get an M10R over an M11. There are still way too many unresolved issues. 

If it's a trade-off between the benefits of the M11, vs the  "unresolved issues", and I was buying one or another tomorrow (someone send me some $$$), I would be getting the M11.  The M10-R doesn't offer such a huge improvement over my M10 that the M11 does.  Eventually Leica will get to the bottom of the problems.  Once they do, someone upgrading to an M10-R will eventually be thinking of upgrading to the M11.  I would.  

This is especially true if all it takes to get by the issues, is to turn the camera off and back on again as was posted up above.

I felt very differently until recently, but the M11 offers SO MANY new things that would be important to me, including the metering, the larger battery, the built-in memory, and USB-C.  

Does anyone here disagree with the comment up above that shutting off the camera and restarting it cures the "crashing" problem?  Maybe someone will send me an M11 to work with?   🙂

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[Qlan]

12 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Does anyone here disagree with the comment up above that shutting off the camera and restarting it cures the "crashing" problem?  Maybe someone will send me an M11 to work with?   🙂

Right, for most of the freezes, popping the battery fixes it (that's why I decided to keep mine). Although there is still the risk of the M11 completely bricking but that is much much rarer than freezes. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Qlan

[MikeMyers]

Interesting reading:  https://alikgriffin.com/leica-m11-review/   ......but in searching the web for " M11 + crash ", I didn't come up with anything useful other than improperly installing firmware.  Maybe Leica should just tell people that while they're still developing software, to turn off the camera, remove and replace the battery, and turn the camera back on.

Nothing new here - I bought my first Nikon D2h, and it died in the first use.  Was replaced, and ditto.  I called Nikon and asked them to send me a D2x that they had been using in-house for whatever, they did, and it lasted forever.   I bought a new Nikon D70 from the first shipment sent to B&H, and a few days later left on a trip to Italy, taking the D70 and leaving my bigger and heavier D2 camera at home.  The D70 lasted less than an hour, then died - and with all of Italy shut down for some yearly holiday, I was stuck.  Someone at the event loaned me his "toy" Nikon D50, and I covered the whole World Championship race with the D50.  Fortunately, I could outsmart the camera, and get the D50 to do what I wanted, by doing things like press the shutter button BEFORE the race car got to where I wanted it in the photo.  Nobody at the magazines complained.  (So, why was I bothering with expensive Nikon DSLR cameras anyway?????).  Same thing seems to be happening with Leica M11, and eventually they'll likely get it sorted out.  Had I just spent $9K on a M11, trading in my previous camera, I would be rather upset......    But if just removing and replacing the battery gets the camera going again, it just becomes an inconvenience.

The more I read all these reviews and reports, and watch the Red Dot Forum videos, the more I want an M11.  The M10-R is now off my want list.  But in the meantime, I've got my M10 and a Nikon D780, so I'm mostly all set.  Eventually I'll find an M11 I can afford, hopefully from The Leica Store (not B&H or Adorama).

[Fractal]

3 hours ago, Qlan said:

That was what I thought too before I bought the M11 and experienced many lockups (see my posts). However it's unfrequent enough (2-3% of the time) and was always resolved by popping the battery that the pros outweigh the cons...

My theory is that third party lenses are an aggravating factor. Since you plan to use some, I would say your chances of experiencing lockups are higher than people using Leica 6-bit encoded lenses.

Thanks for the input. There does seem to be too many factors like this to consider that I'm likely going to wait some, likely see what an M11-P may bring after some time that it's been released.

 

2 hours ago, Rabunmoss said:

Hi there. 

I don’t think that matters much. I see there has been discussion around this here (see link).

Now the new UHS-I writes at 130 and reads at 200 so I don’t think it’ll be a difference using the M10’s.

Like others have said, I would get an M10R over an M11. There are still way too many unresolved issues. 

 

UHS-II was a big one for me, so the idea of it being so problematic has turned me away from the M11. I'm sure it's still plenty usable with UHS-I, but it does begin to dwindle what I would see as advantages over the M10-R. I'm curious to see what prolonged use looks like with the internal memory as well. These things can fail over time in electronics. I think dual card slots is a better approach for this type of thing. Extended battery life is good, but not a big deal to me as I always end up with atleast 3 or 4 extra batteries regardless of the system.

At this point, I'm looking at other options or possibilities. Hopefully down the line I can try an M11 once it's a bit more mature.

[hmzimelka]

5 hours ago, Rabunmoss said:

Hi there. 

I don’t think that matters much. I see there has been discussion around this here (see link).

Now the new UHS-I writes at 130 and reads at 200 so I don’t think it’ll be a difference using the M10’s.

Like others have said, I would get an M10R over an M11. There are still way too many unresolved issues. 

 

New UHS I cards cannot read at 200MB/s or write at 130 MB/s. It isn't possible.

What is possible is using a proprietary card reader for a specific card and using compression to achieve these speeds, and that is exactly what Sandisk have done. These faster speeds can ONLY be achieved at the moment with one or two of their card readers. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by hmzimelka

[hmzimelka]

2 minutes ago, Rabunmoss said:

As you saw the M11 can’t write at UHS-II speeds even though it supports those cards. I’m saying that shouldn’t be a consideration when buying an M11. That’s all. 

I was merely responding to your quote; "Now the new UHS-I writes at 130 and reads at 200"

Sandisks claims are very deceptive as UHS-I has very clear bandwidth limits.

[DenverSteve]

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OP, Fractal, you asked how widespread. You have had 1.4k views here, and only a few indicating an issue. If it were “widespread”, you would have dozens of responses indicating a perceived issue. That in no way lessens the frustration of someone who is experiencing such an issue. I haven’t had a single issue of malfunction so, put me down as “no issues”.  Also it’s important to remember that some who experience any sort of one-time glitch will consider that an issue, while others don’t even notice.  However, I don’t use third-party lenses or Sony cards of any type. The lenses shouldn’t be an issue but Sony cards have been known to cause periodic issues for years.

[Olaf_ZG]

21 hours ago, lct said:

 and the earth will not stop turning .

Are you sure? 🤪

[MikeMyers]

Here is something new that one or more of you can try.  I've read that after downloading a new firmware update on a card, the card should be re-formatted.  But nobody seems to know how to format SD memory cards any more.  If you click "format" on the camera, it doesn't really do a format - what it actually does is an "erase all" which means your camera will think it's now an empty card, with no images - which is not true.  All your images will still be there, and so will the firmware update.

To do a real format on an SD memory card, there are programs that can do it, and computers can do it.

Doing normal format takes a few seconds.  Doing a slow format will take a long time to complete.  But when it gets done, nobody other than the FBI or the CIA will be able to find your old data on that card.

More information here:  https://havecamerawilltravel.com/how-to-format-sd-card-on-mac/

 

Plan "B" - buy a new memory card, and only use it only for photos, not for updating your firmware.

[hdmesa]

12 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

OP, Fractal, you asked how widespread. You have had 1.4k views here, and only a few indicating an issue. If it were “widespread”, you would have dozens of responses indicating a perceived issue. That in no way lessens the frustration of someone who is experiencing such an issue. I haven’t had a single issue of malfunction so, put me down as “no issues”.  Also it’s important to remember that some who experience any sort of one-time glitch will consider that an issue, while others don’t even notice.  However, I don’t use third-party lenses or Sony cards of any type. The lenses shouldn’t be an issue but Sony cards have been known to cause periodic issues for years.

This is just one thread of several here about the issue. I’ve not counted, but there are quite a few with the issue, including a few high profile YouTube reviewers that are M11 owners. And thread views do not equate to users. There will always be many more views than users, especially for topics we return to for updates.

You can also just as well take the flip side of what you’re saying: every one person that posts here with the issue represents 100x others who don’t post here and/or are just living silently with the issue.

[hmzimelka]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Here is something new that one or more of you can try.  I've read that after downloading a new firmware update on a card, the card should be re-formatted.  But nobody seems to know how to format SD memory cards any more.  If you click "format" on the camera, it doesn't really do a format - what it actually does is an "erase all" which means your camera will think it's now an empty card, with no images - which is not true.  All your images will still be there, and so will the firmware update.

To do a real format on an SD memory card, there are programs that can do it, and computers can do it.

Doing normal format takes a few seconds.  Doing a slow format will take a long time to complete.  But when it gets done, nobody other than the FBI or the CIA will be able to find your old data on that card.

More information here:  https://havecamerawilltravel.com/how-to-format-sd-card-on-mac/

 

Plan "B" - buy a new memory card, and only use it only for photos, not for updating your firmware.

When the camera formats the card its different to erase all. The format command provides a lot more information to the SD's controller than simply erasing files via the camera.

Images and firmware are lost as this low-level format erases the allocation table of the SD card and the controller in the SD card treats the memory allocation of the card as empty. With recovery software, if all the memory is read off bit for bit and with specific file recognition, one has the ability to recover some or all files depending on the file extension. This software looks for specific identifiers in the bits of data to recognise beginning and end of known file extension to recover known file formats. I doubt it'll be easy to recover strange files with extensions like that Leica uses for firmware, unless it's common enough for a recovery company to incorporate it into their software.

Doing a full level format like the very quick Unix secure erase command doesn't work with SD cards, so the only full format one can do is an overwrite over the entire card. A great way of wearing out an SD card's consumer grade NAND memory.

"Doing normal format takes a few seconds.  Doing a slow format will take a long time to complete.  But when it gets done, nobody other than the FBI or the CIA will be able to find your old data on that card."

I'd like to see this recovery claim substantiated. This may work on hard drives that can carry residual magnetic charge after a full disk overwrite format, hence the existence of effective multiple-pass format for HDD drives or degaussing machines... but with NAND, the charge gates are either on or off. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by hmzimelka

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Here is something new that one or more of you can try.  I've read that after downloading a new firmware update on a card, the card should be re-formatted.  But nobody seems to know how to format SD memory cards any more.  If you click "format" on the camera, it doesn't really do a format - what it actually does is an "erase all" which means your camera will think it's now an empty card, with no images - which is not true.  All your images will still be there, and so will the firmware update.

To do a real format on an SD memory card, there are programs that can do it, and computers can do it.

Doing normal format takes a few seconds.  Doing a slow format will take a long time to complete.  But when it gets done, nobody other than the FBI or the CIA will be able to find your old data on that card.

More information here:  https://havecamerawilltravel.com/how-to-format-sd-card-on-mac/

 

Plan "B" - buy a new memory card, and only use it only for photos, not for updating your firmware.

When the camera formats the disk, it removes all references to files or folders so that camera does not see them. That is the point of the format. So it does not matter if the original data is still being stored in some parts of the card as the camera cannot access it.

If you need to make the original data unrecoverable, use the free program SD Memory Card Formatter, do not use Disk Utility App or similar.

Edited December 1, 2022 by SrMi

[MikeMyers]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

When the camera formats the disk, it removes all references to files or folders so that camera does not see them. That is the point of the format. So it does not matter if the original data is still being stored in some parts of the card as the camera cannot access it.

Yes, it removes all references to files or folders, but does anyone here know if the internal software in the camera that searches for firmware updates can still access those files?  

The fact that you and I can't "see" deleted images may not have any effect on firmware data.

......I'm just trying to look for unlikely ways that the M11 is getting confused.  If someone has an M11 that is frequently crashing, they could either replace the memory card with a new one, or do a full format of the card, and see if that makes a difference.  You, and I, and 98% of the camera users see the word "format", and assume that the card is wiped clean.  That's what I used to think, until I looked into it, finding the what the camera labels as "format" is really either a "erase all" or a "fast format".  Most of the data remains on the memory card.   

......maybe - I'm trying to think "outside the box".

[MikeMyers]

9 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

When the camera formats the card its different to erase all. The format command provides a lot more information to the SD's controller than simply erasing files via the camera.

When you select "format" on the Leica, are we sure what the M11 does (format or erase all)?

Are the "firmware" files still intact after a "format"?  

Is this description similar to what happens with a Leica M11?  https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/58-troubleshooting-beginner-help/214878-how-put-firmware-update-sd-card.html

 

I think this confirms what you wrote:

https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/formatting-vs-erasing-a-memory-card/

[Photoworks]

I think the M11 has a new file system and a new DB, that is why many card you have in other leica's don't work until you format them.

Just like the newer Sony cameras and now the M11 in camera format will result in non recoverable files with commercial software.

 

[Photoworks]

10 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

When you select "format" on the Leica, are we sure what the M11 does (format or erase all)?

Are the "firmware" files still intact after a "format"?  

Is this description similar to what happens with a Leica M11?  https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/58-troubleshooting-beginner-help/214878-how-put-firmware-update-sd-card.html

 

I think this confirms what you wrote:

https://www.stellarinfo.com/blog/formatting-vs-erasing-a-memory-card/

You don't have to remove firmware from SD card to shoot on M11.

If you do format, the FW will be gone too.

[dscdsc]

On 11/23/2022 at 1:17 PM, lct said:

OK but i would quit using Sony UHS II cards, pending the next firmware upgrade, and i would do a camera reset if i were in your shoes. Now just trying to ID other possible causes, are you using Leica coded lenses, if not, hand coded ZM or CV lenses?

The lock ups happened before I started using the Sony/UHS II cards. I was using sandisk extreme pro UHS I cards from January until September. 95% of the lock ups happened with the sandisk cards. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Yes, it removes all references to files or folders, but does anyone here know if the internal software in the camera that searches for firmware updates can still access those files?  

Yes, we know that neither the computer (when the SD card is mounted) nor the camera can see or access those files after format.

The only way to make those files visible is to run a special recovery program which sometimes may be able to restore the lost data.

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[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Is this description similar to what happens with a Leica M11?  https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/58-troubleshooting-beginner-help/214878-how-put-firmware-update-sd-card.html

 

Actually, on the M11 you have the option of updating firmware wirelessly through the Fotos App.

This is what I do and its pretty effortless

[MikeMyers]

Sorry for the "wild goose chase".