M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[jaapv]

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24 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, all the hardware is the same?  No variability? So, going back a year or two, every CCD sensor in the M9 cameras was faulty, every M8 LCD got coffee stain?  Every SL bricked like mine did? And every M10-D electronics failed?

Never heard about manufacturing variations and tolerance spans? And statistics? Recall the M8 in spring that had a series of sudden deaths? An out-of-tolerance transistor was the culprit. 

The suggestion you make about being too fast to take the shot sounds quite reasonable, that would indicate a timing issue in the firmware, OTOH it would be quite simple for Leica to make the same deduction and it would have been fixed by now. It must be far less simplistic.

Who is blaming the user? Certainly not me. Gear should accept all reasonable use. See my remark about the acceptance of the software. Your suggestion to Leica is a bit umm... unusual.

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[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Never heard about manufacturing variations and tolerance spans? And statistics? Recall the M8 in spring that had a series of sudden deaths? An out-of-tolerance transistor was the culprit. 

The suggestion you make about being too fast to take the shot sounds quite reasonable, that would indicate a timing issue in the firmware, OTOH it would be quite simple for Leica to make the same deduction and it would have been fixed by now. It must be far less simplistic.

Who is blaming the user? Certainly not me. Gear should accept all reasonable use. See my remark about the acceptance of the software. Your suggestion to Leica is a bit umm... unusual.

So it could be either a hardware or software issue, and responsibility firmly rests with Leica.  I think we agree.

Note to self - you know full well irony does not work across cultures and the internet … 😋

Edited February 4, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[Herr Barnack]

Happened to find this on YouTube today:

 

[Herr Barnack]

Another one from the same gent -

 

[jaapv]

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

.

Note to self - you know full well irony does not work across cultures and the internet … 😋

Which led to the invention of emoticons. 

[lct]

11 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Happened to find this on YouTube today:

«disable auto lens detection and allow the lens to be detected manually»

Is it possible with coded lenses under firmware 2.0.2?

[DadDadDaddyo]

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From the perspective of a user whose M11 and M11M do not freeze I have to say the impact of the whole tempest has been to provide me with a couple of tailor-made opportunities to acquire Leica equipment.

My M11 and M11M came to me as Open Box items from one of the large web/brick&mortar camera stores. They were each returned to that store after a new purchase by someone amidst the kerfuffle. 

Both have been working perfectly since arrival.

To any prospective buyers: check out the Open Box offerings from the major/reputable Authorized Dealers. Such folks have robust Return Policies. You really can't go wrong. 

There are good buys to be found!

[Derbyshire Man]

Pretty simple, buy an M11-P save images to internal. Not one single freeze and with 256gb and simple Mac transfer I’m losing nothing.  Save to INT & card seems ok but safe to card only with my Kingston v90 = regular freezes. I’m ok with that, not perfect but no issues in real world usage. 

[Smogg]

Apparently, Leica is not ready for large financial losses by launching a recall campaign, especially when it comes to such an icon as the M series camera. Regular freezes and loss of few damaged frames should have led to a hotfix, but since this did not happen, the problem most likely is in the hardware. Realizing that few users would want to lose their camera for a few months (the usual service time for Leica), the company chose a strategy of slow, useless updates with the goal of allowing any warranty periods to expire and for users to live in hope. We have actually been waiting for reliable firmware for 2 years and as a result we will only get it together with m12, and until then we should not use the SD slot as the main one (thank God this slot at least works in copy mode from the built-in memory). We can say all we want that Leica is a small company, but 2 years is an absurdly long time even for a small company.

[IkarusJohn]

When the M12 comes, let’s see if Leica offers an “upgrade” like they did with the M9 …

[colint544]

I cling to the hope that Leica will eventually do the right thing, the way they did with the corroding sensor issue on the M9 series. It was the same back then - people felt fobbed off, Leica weren't listening to the growing complaints, etc. They began by replacing sensors - although with exactly the same corrosion-prone type - but eventually caved in and redesigned the sensor glass, offering the service free to all and sundry.

I sent my M9 Monochrom back to Wetzlar in 2016 because I had dropped it onto the pavement and knocked the rangefinder out of alignment. Whilst it was there, the said they had spotted corrosion on the sensor (I had never noticed this) and replaced it with the new type. They also serviced the camera, and re-adjusted the rangefinder. I was very grateful for this, especially since it didn't cost me a penny. Leica even paid for the postage both ways.

Perhaps Leica are a different company today. The M9 sensor business gained them my brand loyalty, but must have cost them a lot of money. Maybe they are more profit-driven now. I suppose we shall see. I've already contributed to this thread. I have an M11, purchased nearly a year ago. It doesn't -so far - freeze, but I find aperture priority and auto ISO unreliable. They give me random wildly overexposed frames, so I tend to stick to manual exposure. Not ideal really.

[ianforber]

I’m just glad I got a good one. I suspect I’ll keep it for a while after the M12 comes out as there will surely be complaints of freezes and weird behavioural then too until firmware catches up with fixes. 

[Derbyshire Man]

35 minutes ago, ianforber said:

I’m just glad I got a good one. I suspect I’ll keep it for a while after the M12 comes out as there will surely be complaints of freezes and weird behavioural then too until firmware catches up with fixes. 

Do you write all of your files to the external SD card only Ian?

[ianforber]

16 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Do you write all of your files to the external SD card only Ian?

Yes. DNG and jpeg both recorded straight to SD card. Then imported onto my (MacBook) and the SD card reinserted and formatted in camera. I’ve only ever needed to use the one SD card - a Sandisk 64GB Pro 300 MB/s. I once needed to save to the internal memory because the SD card was full. Worked fine. I briefly tested it with a Sandisk 64GB 170 MB/s card and it worked fine but I was only taking a few test shots rather than giving it a proper workout. I don’t really want to have a lower spec SD card as, although I have the camera set to low continuous drive and almost always just take one shot at a time, there’s a chance that I might take 4-5 in a row and I don’t want any issues with buffer speed and SD card write speed. 

[Derbyshire Man]

15 minutes ago, ianforber said:

Yes. DNG and jpeg both recorded straight to SD card. Then imported onto my (MacBook) and the SD card reinserted and formatted in camera. I’ve only ever needed to use the one SD card - a Sandisk 64GB Pro 300 MB/s. I once needed to save to the internal memory because the SD card was full. Worked fine. I briefly tested it with a Sandisk 64GB 170 MB/s card and it worked fine but I was only taking a few test shots rather than giving it a proper workout. I don’t really want to have a lower spec SD card as, although I have the camera set to low continuous drive and almost always just take one shot at a time, there’s a chance that I might take 4-5 in a row and I don’t want any issues with buffer speed and SD card write speed. 

I'll try a Sandisk V60 then and see how it goes. Are you sure that the write speed of the M11 can actually benefit from faster than that?

[hmzimelka]

8 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I'll try a Sandisk V60 then and see how it goes. Are you sure that the write speed of the M11 can actually benefit from faster than that?

- Writing speeds to internal memory: About 124.4 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 95 MB/S 64GB UHS-I card: About 69 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Sandisk Extreme Pro 300 MB/S 128GB UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 2000x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to Lexar Professional 32GB 1667x UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

- Writing speeds to ProGrade 128GB V60 (Gold) UHS-II card: About 99 MB/sec

 

- Transfer speeds from camera SD storage via USB-C cable: About 69 MB/sec

- Transfer speeds from camera INTERNAL storage via USB-C cable: About 83 MB/sec

[colint544]

12 hours ago, Al Brown said:

How did you get them to do that after you dropped the camera (not a warranty issue)? I have sent my M to Leica in 2016 and several times after, but they have NEVER paid postage for the way there, only for retour. 

I have no idea, Al. I dealt with, I think she was called Andrea, who I had previously dealt with over a repair to a 28 Summicron. She was unbelievably helpful both times. I recall only having to print off a label, package the camera, drop it off at a local convenience store, and pick it up from there around a month later. I was deeply impressed. The camera came back with a note detailing all the work done, and included in the comments box, a terse note saying "Strong traces of using", referencing the overall condition of the camera. That struck me as wonderfully Germanic.

It's not all beer and skittles. I had to pay them a hefty sum to have my 35 Summilux FLE repaired out of warranty after it gradually disassembled itself, through no fault of mine. 

Edited February 7, 2024 by colint544

[ianforber]

20 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I'll try a Sandisk V60 then and see how it goes. Are you sure that the write speed of the M11 can actually benefit from faster than that?

Probably not. Write speeds are vastly overstated. It’s more for my peace of mind than anything else. 

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[lct]

22 hours ago, Al Brown said:

[...] As you said, it must be a harware issue. A video above in post #1816 suggets an issue with 6-bit reader, a very interesting observation and a repeatable process to recall the problem

Old video or old firmware i suspect. The video suggests to «disable auto lens detection and allow the lens to be detected manually». It is not possible with coded lenses under firmware 2.0.2 AFAIK.

[lct]

Just now, Al Brown said:

Video is not even 2 weeks old.

Old firmware then