M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[lct]

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36 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

His method of using a profile does seem to be working for me so far.

Good news thanks for sharing. Was spectacular how my M11 stopped freezing when i updated my old user profiles under firmware 1.6. Also i hear here and there that freezes may be related to lens profiles at least partially so it will be interesting to see how things work for you in this respect.

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[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Qlan said:

The profile thing doesn’t work for me. And as a software engineer I fail to see how this would help in any way. Seems to be a completely separate thing. But keep us updated. 

Crazy thing is I'm now using a Sony Tough 128 card, the slower version, with zero issues. I couldn't get my M10-R to work with it. The slower card actually lights up the red activity light on the camera for a much shorter time at startup and shutdown than either of my SanDisk 128 and 64 that were the faster cards.

As a software engineer, you're probably thinking about how you would write the code from scratch. My guess would be that Leica adapted the M10-R firmware and is having all sorts of issues related to having to open the shutter at startup and immediately begin powering the sensor for metering. I would think that anything that loads at startup/wake could potentially be an issue, either alone or together.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Good news thanks for sharing. Was spectacular how my M11 stopped freezing when i updated my old user profiles under firmware 1.6. Also i hear here and there that freezes may be related to lens profiles at least partially so it will be interesting to see how things work for you in this respect.

Thanks, yeah I even turned back on my manual M lens profile without it freezing on the next few boot-ups. Next I'll get it out of airplane mode and see how that goes.

[Qlan]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Thanks, yeah I even turned back on my manual M lens profile without it freezing on the next few boot-ups. Next I'll get it out of airplane mode and see how that goes.

You can't know for sure that using the profile fixed the freezes. I had the same settings for a whole week before I got a freeze. If you change your settings too fast to test something else, you'll never be able to narrow the root cause down.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

You can't know for sure that using the profile fixed the freezes. I had the same settings for a whole week before I got a freeze. If you change your settings too fast to test something else, you'll never be able to narrow the root cause down.

Agreed. But if I can go a week until it freezes again, I'll consider that a win until we get a firmware update. Before I saved a profile, it was freezing on every startup when it had been sitting off for a while.

[DrM]

Hi,

Maybe it is me, but 1.1k replies to the freeze issues.. I feel a bit lost. Is there a condensed list of situations/work arounds? And is Leica working on it?

Best

Marc

[Photoworks]

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9 hours ago, 19and9 said:

Leica doesn't know either otherwise they would have fixed it.

With most companies they have a schedule of whiting code, testing and delivering. They don't have people coding the hole time.

I think Leica is not any different in this, they probably start again soon and will bring out some fixes in the next Firmware release .

If the issues are pressing and well documented to be able to reproduce, they probably work on it.

[ELAN]

For many weeks after updating to firmware 1.6 I did not have a single freeze. Then yesterday my M11 froze with the red LED on. And today it froze again. Shooting as I normally do and no camera settings were changed in weeks.

No profiles set, storage to internal memory, Leica coded lens. 

[lct]

20 minutes ago, ELAN said:

No profiles set

I would set one up if i were in your shoes but i have strong opponents here so.... vote for the minority . 

Edited February 13, 2023 by lct

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

As a software engineer, you're probably thinking about how you would write the code from scratch. My guess would be that Leica adapted the M10-R firmware and is having all sorts of issues related to having to open the shutter at startup and immediately begin powering the sensor for metering. I would think that anything that loads at startup/wake could potentially be an issue, either alone or together.

I think more the firmware of the Q2

[Photoworks]

8 hours ago, lct said:

Depends upon users i guess. To me the main point is auto iso as i use much auto iso in M mode personally. I cannot use slow shutter speeds on the M11 so i choose 1/2f as shutter speed limit preferably. Works fine for me but the camera has to know the focal length of the lens so i hand code my CV and ZM lenses accordingly. Also i happen to use several lenses of the same focal length so i find it useful to use a lens profile that reminds me of it eventually like my Biogon 35/2.8 that i hand code as a Summarit 35/2.4 because it is a lens i don't own for having a 35/2.5 already. YMMV.

If the lens is coded, the correction of that lens , Vignetting, CA, color uniformity and lens distortion is marked in the RAW file and applied in the JPG. In some programs this is reflected as lens correction.

I have tested my 28 lux and 21 sem, with and without correction, the both got a vignetting correction, distortion, and a shading color correction (something that Lightroom does not correct for) when the tome of color is inconsistent from the center to the edges. Leica correction just the colors at the edge of the image.

The color changed  is retain in LrC even it you take the correction off optics in post .

With lens detection off the Vignetting is there, applying the same lens profile to 

CV 28 and 35 don't really need any correction, but as you go to 21mm CV the correction needed does not match the Leica 21mm. 

In post you can find the correction for your lens, software dependent .

If you are just in need to shutter speed 1/2, you can have lens detection to 50mm and no lens correction is applied and you will get about 1/200s in all cases as minimum shutter. turning OFF lens detection the camera will go to 1/320s

with 28mm, the shutter speed goes down to 1/160s in auto and even lower if the iso get real high.

In any case once you put on a proper 6bit coded lens the camera will turn the lens detection back on to the correct Leica lens, even when it is off.

[lct]

16 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

If the lens is coded, the correction of that lens , Vignetting, CA, color uniformity and lens distortion is marked in the RAW file and applied in the JPG. In some programs this is reflected as lens correction. [...]

I'm not interested in such lens correction and i don't shoot jpegs so it is not an issue for me at all. Never been in 20 years and i don't expect the M11 or whatever body to change anything from this viewpoint but i respect what you said of course .

 

[hdmesa]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

I'm not interested in such lens correction and i don't shoot jpegs so it is not an issue for me at all. Never been in 20 years and i don't expect the M11 or whatever body to change anything from this viewpoint but i respect what you said of course .

 

It will affect the display of the image in the EVF and the playback preview in camera. The only real impact from that could be a change in metering due to less vignetting wide open, but that is usually a positive thing since you reduce the center hotspot some lenses have wide open (28 Lux on a M10M for example).

But I think @Photoworks is saying to be careful since some profiles have edge color shift correction that is hard-baked into the DNG and cannot be removed in LR or C1.

Edited February 13, 2023 by hdmesa

[Photoworks]

13 minutes ago, lct said:

43 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

If the lens is coded, the correction of that lens , Vignetting, CA, color uniformity and lens distortion is marked in the RAW file and applied in the JPG. In some programs this is reflected as lens correction. [...]

I'm not interested in such lens correction and i don't shoot jpegs so it is not an issue for me at all. Never been in 20 years and i don't expect the M11 or whatever body to change anything from this viewpoint but i respect what you said of course .

I think you are missing the point.

You are suggesting people do a 6Bit coding to lenses that are not Leica. Some corrections and in the RAW files and in LrC can not be taken off even when you turn off lens corrections.

 

You may not care for the results, but you should disclose the consequences of 6bit coding non Leica lenses.
Even Leica does not code a hole set of lenses for this reason.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

I think you are missing the point.

I get it perfectly. It's just your point, not mine .

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

If the lens is coded, the correction of that lens , Vignetting, CA, color uniformity and lens distortion is marked in the RAW file and applied in the JPG. In some programs this is reflected as lens correction.

I have tested my 28 lux and 21 sem, with and without correction, the both got a vignetting correction, distortion, and a shading color correction (something that Lightroom does not correct for) when the tome of color is inconsistent from the center to the edges. Leica correction just the colors at the edge of the image.

The color changed  is retain in LrC even it you take the correction off optics in post .

With lens detection off the Vignetting is there, applying the same lens profile to 

CV 28 and 35 don't really need any correction, but as you go to 21mm CV the correction needed does not match the Leica 21mm. 

In post you can find the correction for your lens, software dependent .

If you are just in need to shutter speed 1/2, you can have lens detection to 50mm and no lens correction is applied and you will get about 1/200s in all cases as minimum shutter. turning OFF lens detection the camera will go to 1/320s

with 28mm, the shutter speed goes down to 1/160s in auto and even lower if the iso get real high.

In any case once you put on a proper 6bit coded lens the camera will turn the lens detection back on to the correct Leica lens, even when it is off.

Unlike SL cameras, M cameras do not write opcodes in the raw files (vignetting, distortion).
AFAIK color coding is used to correct for cyan drift (corners), which is baked into the raw file.

[hdmesa]

33 minutes ago, SrMi said:

...AFAIK color coding is used to correct for cyan drift (corners), which is baked into the raw file.

I wish there was a reference list out there showing all the M profiles that add edge color correction and by how much.

Back when I was shooting the CV 50 APO on the SL2-S, there was slight edge color drift apparent when shooting a clear blue sky. I would use the M profile for the Leica 50 APO, which helped correct it.

The M11 needs a way to input the focal length manually. They added that to the SL2/SL2-S so that IBIS could be activated without having to use a manual profile. For the M11, the benefit would be Auto ISO working with the focal length calculations and for recording the focal length to EXIF without having to have show a Leica lens.

[Kwesi]

5 hours ago, DrM said:

Hi,

Maybe it is me, but 1.1k replies to the freeze issues.. I feel a bit lost. Is there a condensed list of situations/work arounds? And is Leica working on it?

Best

Marc

Nah, Just belly up to the bar and tell us your problem. We are sure to opine

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

Not sure what color shifts the M11 coding corrects for actually as BSI sensors don't seem to require any such correction per se, even on UWA lenses like WATE or CV 15/4.5 v2, but it is just a feeling on my part.

[Qlan]

I know that using Leica lens profiles on non-Leica lenses (or incorrect profiles) will make irreversible changes to the raw files but it’s not like the lenses are so different that the changes matter that much. To my non-professional eyes, the results are pretty good and the pros outweigh the cons.