Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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13 minutes ago, Huss said:

Thanks, I have a feeling it is the rewind mech too.  Because I had read about this, I tried to see if there was anything I could do differently to the rewind switch but it is solid, no play and I didn’t want to ‘lean’ on it as it is a brand new under warranty camera.

The effort at the beginning of the rewind definitely is greater than later on, it feels almost like you are working against the mechanism.

Yeah, there should be very little effort required for rewind – the film should feel "loose". I ended up trading in both of mine. If you want to keep yours, you could always just send it to DAG, as I'd bet he can easily adjust the rewind tension and/or fix the rewind lever if it's not fully disengaging the tension on the film spool.

[hdmesa]

I still recommend burning another test roll and try this time to rewind it super super slow. If it doesn't scratch, then you know there's too much tension still being put on the film.

[28framelines]

23 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Gerdammit, but I'm not surprised. They probably replaced the pressure plate and (in arrogance) did not test it with a dummy roll.

This is exactly what happened to me with my new M-A and a fresh Leica CLA M4-P. The rewind mechanism does not release well enough such that the film can rewind without scratching. I'm thinking one person at Leica must be responsible for both the rewind mechanism tolerance adjustment on both new film Ms, for the CLAs, and for the film M repairs – and they are doing it incorrectly or not catching ones that are too tight.

I was able to fix the scratching by:

• Flip the rewind lever and apply a very high amount of pressure to it in its flipped state
• Rewind your film, and you should notice it takes less effort to turn the rewind crank/knob than it did before
• Rewind slowly. If you rewind at any rate of speed other than turtle speed, the film will scratch

 

I don’t think I understand this. Apply pressure to the rewind lever (the thing that allows the process of rewind with the knob/crank)? 

[Huss]

2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yeah, there should be very little effort required for rewind – the film should feel "loose". I ended up trading in both of mine. If you want to keep yours, you could always just send it to DAG, as I'd bet he can easily adjust the rewind tension and/or fix the rewind lever if it's not fully disengaging the tension on the film spool.

Yeah I’m sure he could fix this in his sleep.  When i tried my test roll, I rewound it slowly.  I’m never in a rush using a film Leica!

It seems to me it doesn’t matter what I do, if Leica doesn’t check their work to confirm that they actually fixed anything.

[Crem]

43 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Gerdammit, but I'm not surprised. They probably replaced the pressure plate and (in arrogance) did not test it with a dummy roll.

You give them more credit than I do. I suspect they cleaned the pressure plate with a cloth and sent it right back.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Crem

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Wow, just catching up on this. This just seems like awful customer service. In other industries you'd have a dealer or manufacturer have contact with the customer and relay the exact problem, make sure they're not missing anything etc. It also shouldn't be up to the customer to try to figure the problem out and modify their own brand new product. Such a shame. 

That said do you suppose it may be the bars/gate of the chassis as someone else mentioned? Maybe as the film builds up in diameter in the take-up spool it starts to make contact there? 

[charlesphoto99]

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Reminds me of the first M6 I bought (used) in 1996. Huge expense for me at the time, even used. Had a mysterious light leak. Took three trips back to Leica NJ to fix, each trip with film and print samples. Almost turned me off the whole brand. It's not just this film scratching, but all of the poorly calibrated digital bodies straight out of the box, out of whack lenses, etc etc. They really need to get their act together. Last lens I had repaired I didn't dare send to Leica as I knew it would be either fiasco, $$$, or both. Sent it to DAG, and while it took awhile (three months) as it was a tricky job it turned out, it was still half the price and half the time as Leica, with no return trip needed to have it redone right. Still the greatest cameras in the world, imo, but corporate need to get their heads together.

[Ediz7531]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

This shows that whatever they did, they did not check to see if that fixed the issue.  They just sent it back.  And it would have been so easy to check.

 

I sent an M-A to Leica NJ due to a light leak about a year ago. The work was done under warranty. They changed all of the seals and mailed the camera right back. The light leak was still there in several frames in the first roll after getting it back. This left me with the impression that they didn’t check with a test roll. Granted in that case it’s more “effort” involved since they would have had to get it developed, but DAG and Fleenor did just this when I sent them cameras with light leaks in the past.

Leica NJ did get it right the second time around, however.

I’m sorry to hear about your experience. I hope they do sort it out in the end. My 1/2022 M-A thankfully doesn’t scratch.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, 28framelines said:

I don’t think I understand this. Apply pressure to the rewind lever (the thing that allows the process of rewind with the knob/crank)? 

The release levers on mine weren’t fully clicking onto place when I flipped them. They would still release the film to allow rewind but under too much tension.

[mshchem]

Stunning. 

[28framelines]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The release levers on mine weren’t fully clicking onto place when I flipped them. They would still release the film to allow rewind but under too much tension.

Thanks! I understand now!

[oldwino]

4 hours ago, Crem said:

You give them more credit than I do. I suspect they cleaned the pressure plate with a cloth and sent it right back.

They gave the person who hand polished all those TL cameras a new job! 

[earleygallery]

Just go back and demand a new camera. The one they sold you isn't fit for purpose.

[GarageBoy]

What is with new cameras scratching film? (Rolleiflex HY6 has a reputation too) 

Especially bad considering Leica has pretty much made the same camera since 1954. Throw in the Leica M7 issues (DX reader), and no longer available parts for M6 meters that have been dying and I guess I'll stick with older non metered models for the time being

[cj3209]

WOW.  I think at this point, I would just ask for a refund from the dealer and ask them for priority when the next batch comes in.  Too much valuable time spent trying to address this.

My two cents.

 

[Mute-on]

6 hours ago, earleygallery said:

Just go back and demand a new camera. The one they sold you isn't fit for purpose.

Or a refund…. Let the dealer manage their supplier. That’s not the consumer’s job. 

[Topsy]

The trouble with having a refund is if you really wanted that particular model you either have to buy another or be left wanting, might just as well go for a replacement camera and hopt it's good from the box.

[Jewl]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Topsy:

The trouble with having a refund is if you really wanted that particular model you either have to buy another or be left wanting, might just as well go for a replacement camera and hopt it's good from the box.

The sad thing about a replacement is that the new model might have a similar or other issues (which is not very unlikely). I have this situation now. I am very nervous tbh to get my hands on the new one. We just want to get a working camera. Giving it back and being left wanting is also not the best option. But sure, if the replacement again has issues then I might think about this path. 

Actually I'd rather tend to think about this positively but after all, hard to tackle.

[LocalHero1953]

My MP BP arrived this morning and I've just finished an initial check.
TL/DR: I haven't identified any problems, whether film scratching, RF vertical misalignment, loose mount, or anything else.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, or downplay his issues, but since recent reports have covered MP and M6, it may be helpful if these things are all in one thread.

Checks and comments:

• The QC card and all the stickers on the box are dated 20 January 2023.
• Checked pressure plate surface and edges with finger and thumbnail, and torch. No obvious blemishes.
• The upper pair of recessed screws on the pressure plate are definitely within the film path.
• Loaded a sacrificial roll of 36 exposure, leaving the back flap open.
• Had a good look at all the possible places of contact of the back of the film with camera parts and couldn't see any, other than the pressure plate. Any tension in the film during advancing or rewinding ought to pull the film down, away from the points of contact (other than the pressure plate).
• With shutter on B, checked that the pressure plate actually did press the film forward - it did, slightly.
• Still with the back open, I wound on half a dozen frames, then wound back again. I could see no marks on the back of the film.
• With the back closed, wound on a dozen frames, then opened the back and rewound. I could see no marks on the back of the film.
• With the back closed, wound on till I felt resistance at about 38 exposures, then rewound and removed the film. Pulled it out and checked its length, back and front. No sign of scratches.
• I sensed no unwillingness of the rewind lever to release the film transport. The rewind lever simply moved to the correct position, where there was no play. Nor was there any sudden release of tension with the rewind lever, even though my final check involved running till the advance lever would not advance any more.

All observations are dependent on my eyesight, obviously.
I hope this will be helpful.

Edited January 30, 2023 by LocalHero1953

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[Mike Rawcs]

32 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My MP BP arrived this morning and I've just finished an initial check.
TL/DR: I haven't identified any problems, whether film scratching, RF vertical misalignment, loose mount, or anything else.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, or downplay his issues, but since recent reports have covered MP and M6, it may be helpful if these things are all in one thread

All observations are dependent on my eyesight, obviously.
I hope this will be helpful.

Very helpful. Thank you.

I cancelled my order (last week) for the new M6, partially because of Huss' (and others) experiences of film scratches etc., and partly because of the comments about long wait times for problems to be fixed (although I would just send the camera back and have a replacement).

On a positive note, I read here that the MP camera no-longer has the shark-skin covering (which I dislike). I prefer the MP rewind knob to the M6 angled rewind, so perhaps I'll purchase an MP.