Leica M11 Firmware V 1.6: GPS acquisition and bug fixes

[chasdfg]

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22 minutes ago, Qlan said:

I want to disable GPS but I am not sure how lol. In the FOTOS app, I selected GPS off. I choose Airplane mode but sometimes the display shows Bluetooth. When I restart my camera, GPS is off and no Bluetooth or wifi icon is shown. I save that to my current profile. All is good. 
 

Then at the next start up, the profile icon is changed from selected profile to unsaved profile. I change it to the profile I just saved where there was no geotagging. And now geotagging is active (icon shown) even though I’m still in airplane mode and my iPhone cannot connect to the camera (proving that Bluetooth is indeed inactive). And when I take a photo it shows gps information. I haven’t done more testing to verify the accuracy of the gpa coordinates though, just that the picture in review mode shows the gps icon.

Seems like geotagging works mostly as expected but it’s not correctly saved in the profile and there are some display bugs. Maybe gonna be fixed in 1.6.0.1.

I get the same profile bug. It's annoying. 

I also get weird display bugs where i select something on the quick menu, and the icon remains on my LCD when I'm in live view.

Ironically I've only had one incident of freezing prior to 1.6 but after i installed it, I had another incident (red light on, but camera not responsive). Removing the battery did the trick. Will use the camera more over the weekend and see if anything more bothersome comes up (the freezing part...I can let go - I was changing the camera from Apple MFi to PTP mode. Could be one-off).

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[lct]

4 hours ago, chasdfg said:

Ironically I've only had one incident of freezing prior to 1.6 but after i installed it, I had another incident (red light on, but camera not responsive)

May i ask if you were using a UHS-II card? Just curious.

[ELAN]

Update via FOTOS was fast, smooth and uneventful, as always.

There's bug in Geo-tagging where the first photos taken at a new location incorrectly show the location where the prior photo was taken.  This morning I took a photo at home and then drove to a Cafe 5km away.  Woke up the camera and took a couple shots, which were incorrectly tagged at my home location.  Subsequent shots at the Cafe were correctly tagged at the Cafe location.  Drove back home, woke up the camera and took a couple shots which were incorrectly tagged at the Cafe.  Subsequent shots were correctly tagged at home.  Camera in Eco mode and no use of the FOTOS app today.

I assume the camera takes some seconds to receive up-to-date location data from the iPhone.  Until it receives the current location it uses the location retrieved when the last photo was taken, which could be hours ago and miles away.  A better way to do it is ask the iPhone for its latest known location before asking the iPhone to turn on the GPS radios and (slowly) acquire the current location. The iPhone's last known location is always more accurate than the location of the last photo taken hours ago.

[elmars]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb ELAN:

A better way to do it is ask the iPhone for its latest known location before asking the iPhone to turn on the GPS radios and (slowly) acquire the current location. The iPhone's last known location is always more accurate than the location of the last photo taken hours ago.

Yes, yes, yes! The iPhone updates the position every few seconds. I don't see any reason why the app doesn't use this info.

[chasdfg]

3 hours ago, lct said:

May i ask if you were using a UHS-II card? Just curious.

Nope all my cards are UHS-I

On SD cards, I've had better luck with Sandisk Extreme Pro cards (they're my fastest cards but are old -> 64gb and 16gb). I once used a slower 32gb SanDisk Extreme and I had some unreadable images. Haven't used that card since that incident. Those SanDisk Extreme Pro cards have worked well with my M240, M10D and M10M and seem to be doing fine on the M11.

[lct]

8 minutes ago, chasdfg said:

Nope all my cards are UHS-I

On SD cards, I've had better luck with Sandisk Extreme Pro cards (they're my fastest cards but are old -> 64gb and 16gb). I once used a slower 32gb SanDisk Extreme and I had some unreadable images. Haven't used that card since that incident. Those SanDisk Extreme Pro cards have worked well with my M240, M10D and M10M and seem to be doing fine on the M11.

I have the same UHS-I Sandisk Extreme Pro cards in 64gb and 256gb and they worked and still work fine before and after the firmware update ( 5,000+ shots in 8 months). I will stick to them as long as i'm not reassured about the capability of the M11 to manage UHS-II cards as expected. I mean with zero issue as i read good colleagues here stating that their UHS-II card work well in spite of having to remove the battery from time to time. Not what i call zero issue thanks no thanks none of my Leica or non Leica cameras have had issues like that in 20 years.

[Antonio Russell]

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I was one of those who suffered with a bricked M11 a few months back. Obvously I would have preferred it never happen but kudos to Leica, they replaced the camera and now seemed to have fixed the underlying firmware issue.

Wi-Fi connection is now much simpler and faster in my experience.

[wdahab]

4 hours ago, ELAN said:

Update via FOTOS was fast, smooth and uneventful, as always.

There's bug in Geo-tagging where the first photos taken at a new location incorrectly show the location where the prior photo was taken.  This morning I took a photo at home and then drove to a Cafe 5km away.  Woke up the camera and took a couple shots, which were incorrectly tagged at my home location.  Subsequent shots at the Cafe were correctly tagged at the Cafe location.  Drove back home, woke up the camera and took a couple shots which were incorrectly tagged at the Cafe.  Subsequent shots were correctly tagged at home.  Camera in Eco mode and no use of the FOTOS app today.

I assume the camera takes some seconds to receive up-to-date location data from the iPhone.  Until it receives the current location it uses the location retrieved when the last photo was taken, which could be hours ago and miles away.  A better way to do it is ask the iPhone for its latest known location before asking the iPhone to turn on the GPS radios and (slowly) acquire the current location. The iPhone's last known location is always more accurate than the location of the last photo taken hours ago.

When you take that first photo upon turning on the camera, is the Bluetooth icon showing on the back screen? The camera takes ~5 seconds to get a bluetooth signal from the phone, by my estimation, and it's not fully linked until you see that bluetooth icon. If the stored location is less than 15 minutes old, the camera will think it has a "fresh" location while showing the "I know the current location" icon. That's good enough for "I've stayed in the same place" but not good enough for "I know I've moved a long distance quickly since I last woke up the camera."

[ELAN]

58 minutes ago, wdahab said:

When you take that first photo upon turning on the camera, is the Bluetooth icon showing on the back screen? The camera takes ~5 seconds to get a bluetooth signal from the phone, by my estimation, and it's not fully linked until you see that bluetooth icon.

I don’t know if the BT icon is showing as I never look at the screen. I also never turn off the camera. It’s always awaken from sleep by half pressing the shutter button as I raise the camera. I usually focus and shoot quickly so the camera probably doesn’t have time to acquire a fix before I take the first shot.

Nevertheless, the camera should never tag the wrong location, especially if it’s miles away. If the camera can’t acquire the (approximate) location quickly it shouldn’t write a location to the image. 

With some effort Leica can fix this: since the camera is awake for another 2 minutes before falling asleep, which is enough time to acquire an accurate location, the firmware can be programmed to go back to the images just taken and fill in the accurate location data.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I think the camera updates location data based on a timer, not based on motion.  I did the following test.  With an iPad in my pocket running Fotos, linked to the camera (tested by looking at liveview images and at pictures taken) I went outside and walked 100' up and down the block, taking pictures every 20 feet or so.  They all show the same location as my desk, where I started the experiment  The iPad, on the other hand, with its map  blown up, can clearly distinguish each location.  It is sensitive to motions of a foot or two.  Fotos puts out location data with an accuracy of .0001 degree, which is about 38 feet at the equator, and about half of that at my latitude.  I'd like to see 5 digit accuracy rather than 4 digits (one-meter precision, which many portable GPSes can easily provide),but that is not the problem.  It appears, as others have noted, that the camera is satisfied with whatever information it has received within some time period, and doesn't update it when changes.

On the other hand, connecting to the camera is much improved over what I have seen with past releases and other cameras.

 

[hdmesa]

16 hours ago, SrMi said:

I do not feel that I missed anything in the last 10 months, before this firmware came out. However, I am glad that Leica keeps improving this wonderful camera.

I did, I missed having one since I had to sell it. I was not interested in beta testing Leica's firmware. 

15 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

...I do not miss any of the usability issues I've experienced with this camera. In fact I often resented my decision to purchase this camera because of it. Especially after having to return my M10M, which made the M11 a compromise for me.  The M11 as it is today with current firmware is how this camera should have shipped from the get go.

Same except I also resent the loss incurred from selling it.

[SrMi]

Maybe Leica should adopt the Guinness slogan:

Good things come to those who wait.

😉

[LikameLeica]

8 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I think the camera updates location data based on a timer, not based on motion.  I did the following test.  With an iPad in my pocket running Fotos, linked to the camera (tested by looking at liveview images and at pictures taken) I went outside and walked 100' up and down the block, taking pictures every 20 feet or so.  They all show the same location as my desk, where I started the experiment  The iPad, on the other hand, with its map  blown up, can clearly distinguish each location.  It is sensitive to motions of a foot or two.  Fotos puts out location data with an accuracy of .0001 degree, which is about 38 feet at the equator, and about half of that at my latitude.  I'd like to see 5 digit accuracy rather than 4 digits (one-meter precision, which many portable GPSes can easily provide),but that is not the problem.  It appears, as others have noted, that the camera is satisfied with whatever information it has received within some time period, and doesn't update it when changes.

On the other hand, connecting to the camera is much improved over what I have seen with past releases and other cameras.

 

In my use case, I think it is definitely working properly and using location information along my path.  Using iPhone 13 Pro with Leica Foto and M11 with newest firmware.  

See attached screen shot of locations as shown on "Map" view in Lightroom.  Clicking on each of the orange location icons the pictures are associated with that specific location on the map.  So far, very happy with new implementation and seems to be working better than on my SL2.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

13 minutes ago, LikameLeica said:

In my use case, I think it is definitely working properly and using location information along my path.  Using iPhone 13 Pro with Leica Foto and M11 with newest firmware.  

See attached screen shot of locations as shown on "Map" view in Lightroom.  Clicking on each of the orange location icons the pictures are associated with that specific location on the map.  So far, very happy with new implementation and seems to be working better than on my SL2.

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That makes me suspect that maybe my experiment was flawed, so I'll try it again, making sure that neither the camera or the iPad goes to sleep.  Of course, keeping everything awake without wasting too much power is the whole issue here.

[hmzimelka]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Maybe Leica should adopt the Guinness slogan:

Good things come to those who wait.

😉

Yeah, Leica should definitely adopt that and wait with premature releases. M11 is a good example, so is the new Summilux 35mm FLE.

[LikameLeica]

11 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

That makes me suspect that maybe my experiment was flawed, so I'll try it again, making sure that neither the camera or the iPad goes to sleep.  Of course, keeping everything awake without wasting too much power is the whole issue here.

I am fairly confident that my iPhone was in sleep mode, meaning it was in lock mode with screen off in my pocket.  I never took my phone out of pocket for the entire time I was taking pictures, which was about 30 minutes.  I just did another test.  I have not changed anything on my iPhone Foto App, it is in fact not even an open application on my phone.  The original seating for "geotagging" in the Foto's app is set to "Always".   The M11 settings are "performance mode".  My Leica Camera has been off for two days.  Turned on camera and the "Geo Tagging Status" light turned from the outlined symbol to the solid white symbol within 15 seconds.  I took a picture and then downloaded into Lightroom.  The GPS location was perfectly captured to my location.  I really think this is finally working right with iPhone.

[hmzimelka]

7 minutes ago, LikameLeica said:

I am fairly confident that my iPhone was in sleep mode, meaning it was in lock mode with screen off in my pocket.  I never took my phone out of pocket for the entire time I was taking pictures, which was about 30 minutes.  I just did another test.  I have not changed anything on my iPhone Foto App, it is in fact not even an open application on my phone.  The original seating for "geotagging" in the Foto's app is set to "Always".   The M11 settings are "performance mode".  My Leica Camera has been off for two days.  Turned on camera and the "Geo Tagging Status" light turned from the outlined symbol to the solid white symbol within 15 seconds.  I took a picture and then downloaded into Lightroom.  The GPS location was perfectly captured to my location.  I really think this is finally working right with iPhone.

I still need to look into this a little deeper... but on my iPhone and M11, the whole bluetooth geolocation system is quite interesting. On my phone, the bluetooth connection to the M11 isn't connected. However, when I take a pic, the bluetooth menu blips quickly to connected and then disconnected to the M11. So it would seem the M11 quickly connects on a per image basis to the device.  

What I haven't tested for yet is whether the camera gets the last known location information after moving a large distance, and whether only subsequent images get a more accurate GPS location. Also, I want to determine if the geolocation feature still works with the Leica Photo App closed (force quit). Since it seems the camera requests the bluetooth connection, I wonder if the geolocation would still work. Reason for this test is that I've had geolocation tags on images where I know my Leica Photos App was not running, ie force quit from the app dock.

[elmars]

The iPhone determines the position very accurately every few seconds (3 to 5). The Photos app and the M11 are not as accurate. The position is re-pushed every 1 to 2 min, the position can deviate up to 10 m from what the iPhone offers. One does not understand why this is the case.

The longer time intervals with which the app pushes the geo information also explain, in my opinion, why sometimes an old position is written in the Exif after the camera is turned on and sometimes a current position. This is probably due to the fact that a new, current position is pushed at the same time as the camera is turned on or triggered, or the old information is used.

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[LikameLeica]

1 hour ago, hmzimelka said:

I still need to look into this a little deeper... but on my iPhone and M11, the whole bluetooth geolocation system is quite interesting. On my phone, the bluetooth connection to the M11 isn't connected. However, when I take a pic, the bluetooth menu blips quickly to connected and then disconnected to the M11. So it would seem the M11 quickly connects on a per image basis to the device.  

What I haven't tested for yet is whether the camera gets the last known location information after moving a large distance, and whether only subsequent images get a more accurate GPS location. Also, I want to determine if the geolocation feature still works with the Leica Photo App closed (force quit). Since it seems the camera requests the bluetooth connection, I wonder if the geolocation would still work. Reason for this test is that I've had geolocation tags on images where I know my Leica Photos App was not running, ie force quit from the app dock.

Here are findings and thoughts (not an expert).  Once I upgraded to 1.6 firmware.  I deleted my previous set-up M11 in the Fotos application.  I then added back and connected to my M11.  I changed the settings in the Foto's app for Geotagging to "Always" connected.  From there if I have the Fotos application open and the M11 connected, the Bluetooth Connection on my iPhone shows Connected to my M11 and the Wifi symbol on the M11 LCD has a checkmark below it (see picture below) and the blue light flashes on the back of M11.  I can then control camera from the iPhone.  Once I disconnect the Foto application and close it on my iPhone, the checkmark on the WiFi Symbol on back of camera disappears and the blue light stops flashing, Bluetooth menu on my iPhone also shows disconnected for the M11.  I can take pictures and geo location information is captured accurately and updates while I move around in real-time.  This is no longer using Bluetooth, this is now using wifi.  As stated above I have the "connectivity" setting in the Foto menu of M11 set to "Performance".  

 

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[ELAN]

3 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

That makes me suspect that maybe my experiment was flawed, so I'll try it again, making sure that neither the camera or the iPad goes to sleep.  Of course, keeping everything awake without wasting too much power is the whole issue here.

Hey Scott. Try this: in Eco mode take a few photos at home and let both your M11 and iPad fall asleep.  Get in a car and drive a few miles to a scenic spot. Wake up the camera and take a quick snap, photo #1. Don’t touch your iPad. Wait a minute and take photo #2. Drive back home and don’t touch the camera and iPad. At home wake up the camera and take a quick snap, photo #3. Wait a minute and take phone #4.  Reviewing your photos you’ll see these locations:  

Photo #1:  home location (wrong)

Photo #2:  scenic spot (correct)

Photo #3:  scenic spot (wrong)

Photo #4:  home (correct) 

I happen to develop apps that make use of iOS Location Services API so I know how Geo-tagging works from the iOS point of view: when an iOS app (like FOTOS) asks for the current location iOS immediately returns its last known location along with its accuracy and timestamp. If the iPhone was asleep and idle in your pocket for a while the last known location may be many minutes old and up to ~2km inaccurate.  In order not to fire up the power-hungry GPS radios iOS initiates multiple low-power methods (cellular triangulation, known WiFi APs, BT beacons, etc) to acquire an approximate location in the background using as little battery as possible. Sometimes this location is quite accurate and other times it’s off by a mile or two.  

This is the best location FOTOS can immediately receive from iOS after establishing the BT connection.  FOTOS can now ask iOS for the exact location. iOS will turn on its power hungry GPS chip and starts acquiring GPS signals from multiple satellites. Under the clear sky the iPhone will have a decent fix of ~250 meters accuracy within 5 seconds. It can take up to a minute to receive a location accurate to 5 or 10 meters.  

So the discussion should be how to handle the gap of time between when the camera awakes and starts making images, and when the accurate GPS fix arrives from the iPhone.  I believe that the current implementation in firmware 1.6 of writing the location of the last photo is totally wrong. An image should not have a location that is many miles away.  

I would like to see it implemented as follows:  Upon camera wake-up there’s the first few seconds to make the BT connection and receive the last known location.  During those first seconds nothing at all should be written for location data because the camera has no idea of where it is.  Writing nothing is better than writing a totally incorrect location! 

After connection is established we have an approx location. If it’s accurate enough (say within 250 meter) then write it to the image. Otherwise wait a few more seconds for an accurate location to arrive.   When a very accurate location finally arrives (within a minute of waking up) the firmware can go back to the first images taken after waking up and update their location data**.  This way our images have the best location possible and the location is never off by miles.  

** I don’t know how tricky it is for Leica to update metadata of an image that has already been digitized.