Leica MP Light Meter repair service?

[Melissen-Ghost]

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Hello,

As I watched the latest presentation from Leica about their release of the new M6 I learned that Leica is currently not able to repair the internal light meters of the M6.

So my question is if that is also the case with the Leica MP (I guess so since I think that there is basically no difference from the M6 light meter)? I find it strange that I dont find any information about this after searching on the internet for several hours.

My MP is two years old and the light meter works fine, but I want to know if I need to be afraid that it wont work any time soon and if there are common causes for the light meter to get damaged.

Im living in Germany, so any recommendations for german repair services would be welcome.

Thanks in advance!

 

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[250swb]

Given they are still making MP's (unlike the old M6 which ended production in 1998) it's likely that Leica have plenty of spare parts in stock if anything goes wrong.

[Melissen-Ghost]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

Given they are still making MP's (unlike the old M6 which ended production in 1998) it's likely that Leica have plenty of spare parts in stock if anything goes wrong.

Thanks for the answer. I just reviewed the video I was talking about and they just mentioned it very quick, that they only can't repair the OLD M6 meters. So your answer makes perfectly sense. I was irritated myself because why wouldnt they be able to repair the light meter even on cameras still in production.

[LocalHero1953]

If the new M6 meter is different from the MP meter - an open question at the moment - then I am sure they have designed it so that it can be used to repair current MPs.

[Sunyforreal]

I don’t think I ever got a clear cut answer on this when I asked it a while back, but does the very first batches of the MP use the old M6 light meter assembly? I have an MP with the M6 ISO dial and don’t know whether I fall into the “can be“ or “can’t be” repaired camp.

[Topsy]

1 hour ago, Sunyforreal said:

I don’t think I ever got a clear cut answer on this when I asked it a while back, but does the very first batches of the MP use the old M6 light meter assembly? I have an MP with the M6 ISO dial and don’t know whether I fall into the “can be“ or “can’t be” repaired camp.

Presumably if yours fails Leica can replace it with the later version?

[raizans]

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If the new M6 meter is different from the MP meter - an open question at the moment - then I am sure they have designed it so that it can be used to repair current MPs.

Some quotes from Jason Schneider’s review:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/node/4811394

”Electronics: The built-in electronics are almost identical to the electronics of the current analog Leica MP. This is significantly improved in its details compared to the old Leica M6 from 1984, such as the battery warning indicator, the middle LED indicator as an indication of the correct exposure, and the possibility to switch off the camera (by setting the shutter speed dial to "B"). 

The electronics for the ISO setting have been redesigned. The reason for this is the availability of the electronic components. Some of the components built into the original Leica M6 are unfortunately being phased out, so we have decided to keep these components for the "old" Leica M6 and at the same time have ensured with the new development that once again a particularly long service time is achieved for all models.”

”Q. Can meter parts of the M6 2022 be used to repair the M6 Classic of 1984 as well as the M6 TTL? I am told M6 TTL meter parts are very different and mostly incompatible with the M6 classic. A. That´s correct, the one for the M6 TTL are different.

Q. How does the M6 2022 meter differ from the MP or M6 classic or M6 TTL meters? Sensitivity? Metering pattern? Operation? A. There is no difference between M6 20022 and MP but I am not sure about M6 Classic and M6 TTL. Sorry, we’re still waiting for the answer, too.

Q. Can any meter parts of the M6 2022 be used to repair the M6 classic? M6 TTL? M7? A. Yes, there are several parts which can be used to repair the M6 classic and partly the M6 TTL. M7 not, but I am not sure, and we raised that question to our colleagues, too.”

Yet again we get contradictory comments from Leica. It is either “almost identical” or “there is is no difference”.

[raizans]

1 hour ago, Sunyforreal said:

I don’t think I ever got a clear cut answer on this when I asked it a while back, but does the very first batches of the MP use the old M6 light meter assembly? I have an MP with the M6 ISO dial and don’t know whether I fall into the “can be“ or “can’t be” repaired camp.

Maybe early production had the M6TTL meter?

Edited December 7, 2022 by raizans

[Sunyforreal]

11 minutes ago, Topsy said:

Presumably if yours fails Leica can replace it with the later version?

If I do have the older assembly and it failed I presume the rear door and ISO dial would have to be updated to the newer style as well.

 

2 minutes ago, raizans said:

Maybe early production had the M6TTL meter?

This is what I’m thinking since I have the dot for correct exposure which the original M6 classic didn’t have, only the TTL. My MP is basically identical to the MP6, minus the leatherette and “MP6” serial ID. I don’t really care about things like that but considering mine is already 20 years old hopefully I can at least get a lifetime with the camera before the light meter fails 😂

[Huss]

The MP is still in production.  The new M6 has the same meter.  These meters are solid - I have not seen a failed MP meter.  And actually I have used plenty of old original M6s and have not seen a failed meter there either! (even though I have heard it is a possibility).

I wouldn't worry about this.

  

[Anbaric]

9 hours ago, Sunyforreal said:

I don’t think I ever got a clear cut answer on this when I asked it a while back, but does the very first batches of the MP use the old M6 light meter assembly? I have an MP with the M6 ISO dial and don’t know whether I fall into the “can be“ or “can’t be” repaired camp.

No, the MP meter was always different to the M6 Classic meter. It had the extra LEDs for the middle exposure dot and battery check right from the start, which need different electronics. The TTL was different again - more complicated electronics to handle the flash metering.

[RayD28]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:08 AM, raizans said:

Some quotes from Jason Schneider’s review:

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/node/4811394

”Electronics: The built-in electronics are almost identical to the electronics of the current analog Leica MP. This is significantly improved in its details compared to the old Leica M6 from 1984, such as the battery warning indicator, the middle LED indicator as an indication of the correct exposure, and the possibility to switch off the camera (by setting the shutter speed dial to "B"). 

The electronics for the ISO setting have been redesigned. The reason for this is the availability of the electronic components. Some of the components built into the original Leica M6 are unfortunately being phased out, so we have decided to keep these components for the "old" Leica M6 and at the same time have ensured with the new development that once again a particularly long service time is achieved for all models.”

”Q. Can meter parts of the M6 2022 be used to repair the M6 Classic of 1984 as well as the M6 TTL? I am told M6 TTL meter parts are very different and mostly incompatible with the M6 classic. A. That´s correct, the one for the M6 TTL are different.

Q. How does the M6 2022 meter differ from the MP or M6 classic or M6 TTL meters? Sensitivity? Metering pattern? Operation? A. There is no difference between M6 20022 and MP but I am not sure about M6 Classic and M6 TTL. Sorry, we’re still waiting for the answer, too.

Q. Can any meter parts of the M6 2022 be used to repair the M6 classic? M6 TTL? M7? A. Yes, there are several parts which can be used to repair the M6 classic and partly the M6 TTL. M7 not, but I am not sure, and we raised that question to our colleagues, too.”

Yet again we get contradictory comments from Leica. It is either “almost identical” or “there is is no difference”.

I don't understand why we can't get definitive answers.  In Q #1, (which is two questions) the answer does not address the M6 Classic.  In Q #3, the answer indicates "several parts which can be used to repair the M6 classic ...".  Several means not all, so I guess it depends on an individual's meter malfunction.  

Also,

"The electronics for the ISO setting have been redesigned. The reason for this is the availability of the electronic components. Some of the components     built into the original Leica M6 are unfortunately being phased out, so we have decided to keep these components for the "old" Leica M6 and at the same time have ensured with the new development that once again a particularly long service time is achieved for all models.”

It sounds like there are meter components for Classic M6's still available.  I don't follow M6 threads about meter repairs closely, but it sounds like Leica could repair an M6 meter today.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by RayD28

[jakontil]

20 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

I don't understand why we can't get definitive answers.  In Q #1, (which is two questions) the answer does not address the M6 Classic.  In Q #3, the answer indicates "several parts which can be used to repair the M6 classic ...".  Several means not all, so I guess it depends on an individual's meter malfunction.  

Also,

"The electronics for the ISO setting have been redesigned. The reason for this is the availability of the electronic components. Some of the components     built into the original Leica M6 are unfortunately being phased out, so we have decided to keep these components for the "old" Leica M6 and at the same time have ensured with the new development that once again a particularly long service time is achieved for all models.”

It sounds like there are meter components for Classic M6's still available.  I don't follow M6 threads about meter repairs closely, but it sounds like Leica could repair an M6 meter today.

 

 

the last thing i read was the m6 meter is repairable but it wont be quick, again loose end, not definitive why it wont be quick, due to long wait? or hard to source part but possible

[Matlock]

40 minutes ago, jakontil said:

the last thing i read was the m6 meter is repairable but it wont be quick, again loose end, not definitive why it wont be quick, due to long wait? or hard to source part but possible

But the question to ask is "how many M6 meters have actually failed?" I suspect it is very few, but that won't stop the scaremongers on this forum.

[Anbaric]

6 minutes ago, Matlock said:

But the question to ask is "how many M6 meters have actually failed?" I suspect it is very few, but that won't stop the scaremongers on this forum.

The only people who have any handle on that would be Leica and some of the busier technicians. Enough for Alan Starkie and Don Goldberg to write about the lack of spare parts, anyway, and while meter failures don't seem to be a big problem at the moment, we should expect more of them over time. Alan Starkie has a balanced assessment:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

'In order to accommodate the quantities that Leica would need, the whole metering circuit was constructed on a ceramic hybrid circuit board that was soldered directly to the flex. Later, fully encapsulated modules would be made. The problem with the ceramic hybrid main boards is that the surface mount components are not soldered but glued using silver loaded epoxy. In addition, on close inspection, there seems to be a screen printed overlay of black ink. This I think may be screen printed resistors. This is problematic because over time, the material can start to drop off. Replacing the 'off delay' components, which can cause problems can be difficult with these hybrid boards. Generally, light meters should be reliable long term. The voltages and currents employed are exceedingly low, meaning that no heat is generated and components are operated well below their rated maximum. Silicone photodiodes are also more reliable than the older CdS cells and much more so than the photovoltaic cells as used on the old Leicameters. The electronics of an M6 are primarily transistors, op-amps, diodes, resistors and capacitors, the latter being the only one to degrade in any great way. Then you have ageing of soldered joints and conductive glued joints, battery corrosion, moisture corrosion and general oxidation.'

As an M6 Classic owner, I don't worry about it. If I were a prospective purchaser, I guess the question I would be asking would be - is it worth paying double the price for a new camera that is definitely fully serviceable and has some other advantages like the brass top plate and the RF flare fix? (though realistically, even a secondhand M6 Classic today costs more than I want to pay for a film camera).

[jakontil]

33 minutes ago, Matlock said:

But the question to ask is "how many M6 meters have actually failed?" I suspect it is very few, but that won't stop the scaremongers on this forum.

Weird the real victims don’t actually show themselves very much 😀

 

8 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

The only people who have any handle on that would be Leica and some of the busier technicians. Enough for Alan Starkie and Don Goldberg to write about the lack of spare parts, anyway, and while meter failures don't seem to be a big problem at the moment, we should expect more of them over time. Alan Starkie has a balanced assessment:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

'In order to accommodate the quantities that Leica would need, the whole metering circuit was constructed on a ceramic hybrid circuit board that was soldered directly to the flex. Later, fully encapsulated modules would be made. The problem with the ceramic hybrid main boards is that the surface mount components are not soldered but glued using silver loaded epoxy. In addition, on close inspection, there seems to be a screen printed overlay of black ink. This I think may be screen printed resistors. This is problematic because over time, the material can start to drop off. Replacing the 'off delay' components, which can cause problems can be difficult with these hybrid boards. Generally, light meters should be reliable long term. The voltages and currents employed are exceedingly low, meaning that no heat is generated and components are operated well below their rated maximum. Silicone photodiodes are also more reliable than the older CdS cells and much more so than the photovoltaic cells as used on the old Leicameters. The electronics of an M6 are primarily transistors, op-amps, diodes, resistors and capacitors, the latter being the only one to degrade in any great way. Then you have ageing of soldered joints and conductive glued joints, battery corrosion, moisture corrosion and general oxidation.'

As an M6 Classic owner, I don't worry about it. If I were a prospective purchaser, I guess the question I would be asking would be - is it worth paying double the price for a new camera that is definitely fully serviceable and has some other advantages like the brass top plate and the RF flare fix? (though realistically, even a secondhand M6 Classic today costs more than I want to pay for a film camera).

very big dilemma between choosing M6 classic or the new M6 classic with its benefits, however if it were me, i know I’d go with mp black paint, tick all my needs/wants plus a black paint

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, RayD28 said:

It sounds like there are meter components for Classic M6's still available.  I don't follow M6 threads about meter repairs closely, but it sounds like Leica could repair an M6 meter today.

Even if they're maintaining a stock of some components, it may still be the case that others have already run out, like the main circuit board itself. We know that independent technicians can no longer get them, though I suppose Leica might have kept some back for themselves as the stocks dwindled, which for now would give them the ability to service 'all models'. I don't think 'all models' can include the TTL, as we've had reports in the forum that not even Leica could fix them. I don't think I've seen a report from a user of a Classic that Leica couldn't fix, just the articles and posts from independent technicians who could no longer get the circuit boards from 2022, and the claims from a visitor to Wetzlar and from someone at Leica that they were working on a solution for the Classic (with no guarantee that this would prove practical).

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

The only people who have any handle on that would be Leica and some of the busier technicians. Enough for Alan Starkie and Don Goldberg to write about the lack of spare parts, anyway, and while meter failures don't seem to be a big problem at the moment, we should expect more of them over time. Alan Starkie has a balanced assessment:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

'In order to accommodate the quantities that Leica would need, the whole metering circuit was constructed on a ceramic hybrid circuit board that was soldered directly to the flex. Later, fully encapsulated modules would be made. The problem with the ceramic hybrid main boards is that the surface mount components are not soldered but glued using silver loaded epoxy. In addition, on close inspection, there seems to be a screen printed overlay of black ink. This I think may be screen printed resistors. This is problematic because over time, the material can start to drop off. Replacing the 'off delay' components, which can cause problems can be difficult with these hybrid boards. Generally, light meters should be reliable long term. The voltages and currents employed are exceedingly low, meaning that no heat is generated and components are operated well below their rated maximum. Silicone photodiodes are also more reliable than the older CdS cells and much more so than the photovoltaic cells as used on the old Leicameters. The electronics of an M6 are primarily transistors, op-amps, diodes, resistors and capacitors, the latter being the only one to degrade in any great way. Then you have ageing of soldered joints and conductive glued joints, battery corrosion, moisture corrosion and general oxidation.'

As an M6 Classic owner, I don't worry about it. If I were a prospective purchaser, I guess the question I would be asking would be - is it worth paying double the price for a new camera that is definitely fully serviceable and has some other advantages like the brass top plate and the RF flare fix? (though realistically, even a secondhand M6 Classic today costs more than I want to pay for a film camera).

Well there were well over 132000 M6s made and I know of no one who has suffered a meter failure (obviously some have) so I suspect the number is far below 1%.

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[Huss]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

The only people who have any handle on that would be Leica and some of the busier technicians. Enough for Alan Starkie and Don Goldberg to write about the lack of spare parts, anyway, and while meter failures don't seem to be a big problem at the moment, we should expect more of them over time. Alan Starkie has a balanced assessment:

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/post/is-your-leica-m6-slowly-becoming-an-m4-p-no-more-light-meter-pcb-s

 

Worrying that there is an M6 meter problem because DAG and Starkie have run out of parts is not indicative that there is a problem.  It is more of a case that if an M6 has a meter problem, that is where they will be sent.

Hundreds of thousands of M6s have been made.  If DAG had only spare meter parts for, say 100 cameras, then yes he will run out of parts after he has repaired 100.  But does that mean there is a meter problem?  Sure DAG could say ‘I have repaired 100 broken M6 meters’.  But that could be meaningless, only a blip, if that was all that failed from the entire production run.

[Anbaric]

I'm not worried about it at all, but the lack of parts is something potential purchasers should be aware of, because failures do happen from time to time, and more will happen in the future as components age. But hopefully Leica or one of the independents will make this a non-issue. Alan Starkie again: 'The first M6 was 1984 and circuit boards have only just become unavailable. That's nearly 40 years but these cameras have at least another 40 years life in them. For that reason I fully intend to redesign the metering and produce replacement circuit boards.'