Leicaflex + Summicron 50 f/2 vs. Leica R4 35-70 f/3.5

[florian30333]

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Hey dear Leica community,

I recently got two offers for two Leica cameras. The first one is a Leicaflex (The original one, no TTL) with a Summicron 50mm f/2 (V1) and the second offer was a Leica R4 with a 35-70 f/3.5. 

I even got an offer for a Leica R3 (Made in Germany!) for around the same price. All cameras (inculding the lens) are somewhere from 250€ - 300€ (245$-290$)

Which one should I buy, I am very new to the Leica world, since I mainly used Nikon yet. Or should i sell my whole Nikon System to get a Leica M camera?

Greetings from Germany

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[hansvons]

From a real Leicaristi you will hear that the R system cameras until the R8 came out were Minolta cameras disguised as Leicas and not real Leicas. The Leicaflex, however, is the real Leica SLR. While this is mostly true, there's a reason why the R3 to R7 have a right to exist: the lenses. (All) R primes are Leica primes; most of the zooms are not. Many of the R prime lenses are as good or the same but different as their M counterparts; others don't have M siblings because they are telephotos.

That's my take: The Leica R6/6.2 is likely the most interesting of all Leica SLRs. That's because it's entirely mechanical (the battery is only for the light meter) and fully manual, and it had the chance to learn from the 10+ years of R3-R6 production before it was designed. It's still based on the original Minolta-Leica design collaboration. But it doesn't suffer from the old electronics that many R cameras do, including the R8/9. In a way, it's the R-line's M6. Why the R6 and not the Leicaflex? The R6 is from an entirely different era. It's smaller, brighter, and lighter, and the light meter works really well. 

Is the R6 better than the Nikon counterparts? No. The Nikons flagship at that time was the F3, whose shutter was electronically controlled. I have no insights into whether the F3 suffers from dying electronics, but the R4 does, as I experienced myself. If I were to buy a Nikon, I'd buy the F2. But a maintained F2 is well above 500 EUR. That's R6 territory. 

Would I sell all my Nikon gear and get an M6? If 28mm to 50mm (90mm) is all you need, perhaps only one lens, say a 35mm Summicron, and you like range finders, I'd do that step without further thinking. You won't lose money in the long run if you buy from a trusted source of high quality. But that, too, can be said about the R6/6.2 and the R primes.

I'm a ground glass guy and like to shoot 90mm. That's why I have two R6/6.2 bodies for shooting B&W. Plus, I use my R lenses for video (brilliant little cine primes, some shared their glass with Panavision Primos) and digital colour stills. Getting an M10/11 and an M6 for B&W would have been on the table if I was only shooting stills.

Lastly, The 50mm Summicron is a brilliant lens and a great companion - both V1 and V2. I also own the Summilux version but prefer the Summicron for its smaller footprint and equally excellent images. It would be the last lens I'd sell. 

[hepcat]

My perspective is much like hansvons, above.  I started shooting M Leicas in 1974 and had them until I finally couldn't see the focus patch well enough to critically focus.  I sold my M gear in 2016.   I couldn't afford an R glass system, so I went with Nikon film bodies and lenses that were cheap but effective.  I never got on with Nikon though.  Everything is backwards...  shutter speed dial, lens mount, focus helix, and aperture ring.  Drove me nuts, but I lived with it for about four years.

I DID sell my entire Nikon kit after I bought a Leicaflex Standard, a Leicaflex SL, and six R primes from 28mm to 180mm for a price I could live with.   I now have both the Standard and SL, plus a Leicaflex SL2, an R5 and an R6.2.   The reason for moving to the R series is, of course, the glass.  The bodies just come with the deal.  Each body has something I like.  I am now completely divested of Nikon gear.  I have a Lumix S1 as my full frame digital that accepts the R glass with adapters as well.   I am a happy camper. 

If, however, you find the cost of the glass prohibitive, and it's getting moreso every day it seems... then stay with Nikon.  Other than everything being backwards, it's really great stuff. 

[hansvons]

4 hours ago, hepcat said:

I never got on with Nikon though.  Everything is backwards...  shutter speed dial, lens mount, focus helix, and aperture ring.  Drove me nuts, but I lived with it for about four years.

I forgot about that. True! I once was tempted to buy an 80ies Nikkor 85mm lens and adapt it to my SL2-S because it rendered beautiful images and was dirt cheap. But then I remembered the word of an old friend (cameraman) who said that Nikon's backwards focusing drives you nuts, challenging your muscle memory. Despite that, he's a Nikon diehard and lives with the pain. Later, I bought a V1 Elmarit R 90mm in mint condition, an excellent lens for close-ups.

5 hours ago, hepcat said:

I started shooting M Leicas in 1974 and had them until I finally couldn't see the focus patch well enough to critically focus. 

That's the M camera's dirty little secret. Focus is an issue. Young eyes, no spectacles, 50mm, straight lines in the image, f 4.0 - easy. Older eyes, varifocals, 35mm/28mm, no straight lines (the subject's eyes, for instance), f 2,8 - focus gamble. Zone-focusing is another focus gamble. I find focus more critical for a well-made photo than exposure. YMMV, of course.

[florian30333]

I just bought the Leicaflex Standard with the 50mm Summicron V1 (2cam). I will see how I will get along with it. If I really like the brand, the glass and the precise engineering, I will think about selling my Nikon equipment and purchase an old M3/M2, so I got a complete Leitz setup.

By the way, I own my great grandfathers Leitz Focomat Ic enlarger. I am pretty happy with it, it lets me create beautiful black and white prints.

I am pretty shure, that someday I will own one of the M Leicas, because it was always a big dream of mine. But that might be a long time in the future, since I am still a student in school here in Germany 😅.

Thanks for your advices and greetings from Germany

[hepcat]

8 hours ago, florian30333 said:

I just bought the Leicaflex Standard with the 50mm Summicron V1 (2cam). I will see how I will get along with it. If I really like the brand, the glass and the precise engineering, I will think about selling my Nikon equipment and purchase an old M3/M2, so I got a complete Leitz setup.

By the way, I own my great grandfathers Leitz Focomat Ic enlarger. I am pretty happy with it, it lets me create beautiful black and white prints.

I am pretty shure, that someday I will own one of the M Leicas, because it was always a big dream of mine. But that might be a long time in the future, since I am still a student in school here in Germany 😅.

Thanks for your advices and greetings from Germany

Well, good luck with that Standard and Summicron.  You'll have to come back and let us all know how you like it!

The M Leicas are very different cameras from the Leicaflex and R cameras and are a very different working experience.

Enjoy your new camera!

 

[davidmknoble]

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Also know that the Leicaflex can typically still be serviced because it is such a mechanical camera.  The light meter may or may not be accurate because of the age, but a handheld light meter can work fine there.  I think you made the right choice for a good start and long term use…

[florian30333]

5 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Also know that the Leicaflex can typically still be serviced because it is such a mechanical camera.  The light meter may or may not be accurate because of the age, but a handheld light meter can work fine there.  I think you made the right choice for a good start and long term use…

Thanks, I would not have used the lightmeter anyways, but I think I am still gonna buy a digital one for metering long exposure situations. I love taking long exposure photos at night of my town when everything is covered with snow.

[florian30333]

On 10/20/2022 at 4:08 AM, hepcat said:

Well, good luck with that Standard and Summicron.  You'll have to come back and let us all know how you like it!

The M Leicas are very different cameras from the Leicaflex and R cameras and are a very different working experience.

Enjoy your new camera!

 

A vew days ago, I got my first roll of Kodak Gold, which I shot through the Leica, back. I do like photos which came out, but I really have to practice the focus on my new camera. I am not the biggest fan of Kodak Gold and the photo quality of the lab, so I got to scan them myself when I have some free time. I normally use b/w film and enlarge those negatives myself on my old Leitz Focomat Ic. However I am stunned by the buildquality of this SLR. All the cameras I used before (Nikon F3/FM/F4/F90) just feel like toys compared to this beast of a camera.

[hepcat]

2 hours ago, florian30333 said:

A vew days ago, I got my first roll of Kodak Gold, which I shot through the Leica, back. I do like photos which came out, but I really have to practice the focus on my new camera. I am not the biggest fan of Kodak Gold and the photo quality of the lab, so I got to scan them myself when I have some free time. I normally use b/w film and enlarge those negatives myself on my old Leitz Focomat Ic. However I am stunned by the buildquality of this SLR. All the cameras I used before (Nikon F3/FM/F4/F90) just feel like toys compared to this beast of a camera.

Thank you for the update!  Yes, the build quality on the Leicaflex series is amazing.  The cameras you've used were '80s and '90s cameras where modular building with lighter materials and electronics had become the norm.  In the Nikon line, the original 1957 F and the 1972 F2 both have a more similar, fully mechanical feel to the Leicaflex cameras.  The overwhelming success of the Nikon F was actually the camera that drove Leica to build the Leicaflex Standard as the Nikon F essentially was a Leica M killer.   Post a shot or two from your scans when you have them done!

[davidmknoble]

I agree with @hepcat.  I have two Nikon F2’s that I had serviced in England and they have some new parts that wear out significantly over time and the shutters speeds were completely reset to factory.  I love to use these old manual SLR’s (even with the loud ‘clap’ compared to an M3). 

My best advice if you like this body is to get a full service.  It will work better and last longer..   Just my 2 cents.