lens selector off?

[geotrupede]

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Hi all,

very happy with camera and all, however one thing bugs me lately.

the lens selector seems to go back to R lenses all the time, even if i am sure to set it to OFF.

is this the default behaviour when one changes lens or remove battery? seems like a bug to me...

G>

 

[lct]

You may wish to check if you're using a lens profile for R lens or an uncoded lens with a screw head in the way of the 6-bit sensor. If not i would do a reset of the camera. 

[geotrupede]

I set OFF all the time, save profile. But somehow it comes back to R. really odd.

It seems to happen when I change lens or switch camera off.

Hope it is not hardware fault because of the reader (I had that on an M9 at some stage).

G.

 

[lct]

No hardware issue i believe. Just the M11 firmware preferring coded lenses for some reason. You may wish to elaborate on lenses you're using for further advice if i can. 

[geotrupede]

Thanks! I have a bunch of M coded and uncoded. Then using some with the screw adapter, then some other using URTH adapters for R, M42. so 3 adapter types and M original. None of the adapter is by Leica.

[UliWer]

The camera‘s (all digital M camera‘s) capability to „detect“ any lens depends on the 6-bit-sensor on the flange. If this sensor „reads“ a proper 6-bit-code of a lens, it will „detect“ the right lens.

Though in some cases this 6-bit sensor has its own will and starts to fantasize about lenses: One reason may be that there is a little spot of dirt on the sensor itsself or on the lenses six-bit code. Another reason may be light coming to the six-bit sensor, when it should be covered by the lens (general problem when you use screw-mount lenses with an adapter which has a spareout exactly at the sensor’s position). If there is dirt, the sensor may „misread“ the 6-bit code, entering one which was not chosen, or may not be able to read any codes, entering the last one which was manually chosen. In the case of light coming to the sensor, the sensor may „think“ that there is no lens attached. 

As you say you use screwmount lenses with adapter I am rather sure, this causes the „fault“. When the surroundings are rather dark, or you try to cover the open sensor with a finger or so, you may get the entry for your last manually chosen lens, even if the detection if put on „off“. When there is enough light, you may get the signal „no lens attached“. 

[lct]

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17 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

Thanks! I have a bunch of M coded and uncoded. Then using some with the screw adapter, then some other using URTH adapters for R, M42. so 3 adapter types and M original. None of the adapter is by Leica.

In absence of (coded) Leica adapter, the body cannot know what lens is used unless you enter a lens profile through the Lens Detection menu of the camera.

[UliWer]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

In absence of (coded) Leica adapter, the body cannot know what lens is used unless you enter a lens profile through the Lens Detection menu of the camera.

Yes, but therefore the menu allows you to switch lens detection off - which geotrupede did. This does not help if the six bit detector gets light, which is caused by screwmount adapters with the typical spareout or may be caused by other adpters which don‘t cover the six bit detector completely. 

[geotrupede]

3 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Yes, but therefore the menu allows you to switch lens detection off - which geotrupede did. This does not help if the six bit detector gets light, which is caused by screwmount adapters with the typical spareout or may be caused by other adpters which don‘t cover the six bit detector completely. 

Correct, I do use "OFF" hoping that this will switch off lens detection altogether. But somehow, and possibly with the screw adapter and light leaking on the 8 bit sensor, the lens reader comes back to life and thinks of an uncoded R lens.

I suppose this would be the same when changing lens with camera on (leaking light on reader).

Will try systematically and report back.

In the meantime... I cannot really think of a valid and logical reason for this behaviour, hoping in a bug and fearing malfunction... 

G.

 

 

 

[lct]

1 minute ago, UliWer said:

Yes, but therefore the menu allows you to switch lens detection off [...]

Problem is this does not work or randomly on the M11, at least on my copy. Better way is to hand code lenses or enter lens profiles through the lens detection menu.

[geotrupede]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Problem is this does not work or randomly on the M11, at least on my copy. Better way is to hand code lenses or enter lens profiles through the lens detection menu.

so, just to check, you have my same issue? as the lens reader is a bit crazy and does things which should not? 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

so, just to check, you have my same issue? as the lens reader is a bit crazy and does things which should not? 

Not really because i use Leica adapters and my lenses are coded or hand coded for the most part. Only problem i have is with uncoded lenses having a screw head in the way of the 6-bit sensor. 

[geotrupede]

ok folks, problem solved. It IS a BUG.

easy to reproduce too.  Leica pls fix.

how to make this happen:

1) set the reader to OFF.

2) attach any lens without a code, all good, all stays OFF. do this with camera on or off and everything works.

3) BUT once you mount a lens which includes the optical code, the reader goes on AUTO bypassing the OFF mode which was selected.

4) next time you mount an uncoded lens the system will try to make up for something and it will read as 'uncoded' as the system is now on AUTO and no longer on OFF.

 

It is OFF becoming AUTO because lenses with code are used, and without the user deciding to do so.

OFF should stay OFF until the user wants this to be, not sure why this silly behaviour. but I get it, all lenses should be coded and you shall never use anything but leica glass... come on... the beauty of the M11 is that with the viso you can use everything you like... Jupiter, Takumar, Nocti, Olympus, Nikon, whatever you wish... for fun!

G.

 

 

 

 

 

[UliWer]

The 6-bit-code detector has a second function: it also detects whether a lens is attached. If there is no lens attached, liveview will not work - which makes sense, as liveview needs an open shutter and would leave the sensor unprotected.

When they introduced the M (Typ 240) you could not use screwmount adapters which left the 6-bit-detector uncovered, since the camera always went in the "no lens attached" mode. They changed this with a firmware update, so when you switched lens detection off, you could use the camera without liveview .

So it seems that they "forgot" this firmware component for the M11. Or perhaps the new mode of lightmetering, which always works with an open shutter, even if you don't use liveview, causes problems.

[geotrupede]

just tested and no reason for this. when the M11 has reader OFF, camera in use with live view and viso, I can remove lens, live view continues, I can also shoot, then put back lens, reader still OFF. everything as expected/ 

until I install a coded lens, at which point the reader wakes up officially and goes to AUTO.

I think it is as you say something from old model, or new bug but definitely NOT intended, nor needed.

I dare to say, almost if they forgot some nested IF conditional in the code...

Edited October 3, 2022 by geotrupede

[UliWer]

4 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

I dare to say, almost if they forgot some nested IF conditional in the code...

Yes, since the M10 the camera automatically switches to the lens detection which it reads in a 6-bit-code, even if you manually choose any other lens from the menu - which is useful. But it should not do so, when the lens detection is off. The M10 doesn't. So they have to apply the same logic for the M11. I think the fault has already been reported to Leica, but I recommend to describe it again for them, so they can "repair" it by a firmware update. 

 

[geotrupede]

yeah, happy to report but how? I was into a firmware beta group for the SL2S at some stage but no longer, so shall I start a new topic with "BUG" in the title?

[UliWer]

14 minutes ago, geotrupede said:

yeah, happy to report but how?

Just write a mail to Customer Care: customer.care(at)leica-camera.com

There is also another thread for Firmware proposals:

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by UliWer

[charlesphoto99]

This is also an M10-R bug. I only have one uncoded lens (90mm Elmarit-M), but it drives me crazy as it always resets to auto and "R adapter" vs the manual entry. 

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[lct]

There is indeed a bug i believe but as far as the M11 is concerned, it relates to User Profiles i suspect.
The M11 works through User Profiles essentially. Even i we don't create User Profiles, the M11 works with the Default Profile which is based on Lens Detection : Auto. Then when using uncoded lenses, the camera 'hunts' to find white and black pits in the way of the 6-bit sensor.
To avoid that, people using uncoded lenses may wish to create a User profile for such lenses with Lens Detection : Off. Let's call it 'UNCO' to simplify. Suffice it to choose that 'UNCO' profile then and the issue should be fixed for good... 
Problem is the bug appears here IMHO.
When we change the lens for any other one, the camera should keep the memorized profile normally, i.e. the 'UNCO' one i was referring to in my example above. Problem is the M11 'forgets' that memorized profile when a coded lens is used. It then quits the memorized profile and chooses the Default Profile instead. 
And next time we use an uncoded lens, the M11 will 'hunt' once again...
• Leica solution: fix that (apparently simple) bug ASAP.
• lct solution: create a 'UNCO' or whatever User Profile with Lens Detection : Off and chose it each time we use an uncoded lens on the M11.
Just a guess