The Fuji Fetish - Leave the M alone

[Cthulhu]

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Just watched parts of this video 

 

I don’t know about you but I lived with the XPro3 for over a year. I know for a fact the hybrid finder is a gimmick (same as the backwards LCD). The OVF in it doesn’t work for anything other than 23mm and 35mm is pushing it already. Anything wider than 23mm doesn’t show and anything longer than 35mm is too small to see. 

See almost, if not every person, who reviews this camera, if you really look, the OVF is closed? They’re just using the EVF. 

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Like this guy said at the end of this video “let’s face it; I’ll never use the OVF”. 

Yet there are posts after posts of people clamoring for the Leica M to have some sort of hybrid EVF solution. 

IMO if you take out the rangefinder then you basically kill the M. Why not just make an ILC version of the Leica Q and call it a day?

I don’t know why this fetish to want to turn the Leica M into a Fuji. What’s next? Autofocus? IBIS? 

How many more things would you like to put in the Leica M until you make it into yet another mirrorless camera? 

It’s the limitations of the rangefinder that makes me be so much more creative with it. The more you make it “easier” for me to shoot it the less I would want to. 

If you want a Fuji just get one. They’re much cheaper. 

[Gateway77]

With respect, regards XPro 3 - I think the assumption that the OVF is never going to be used is totally wrong.  I've never found it just a gimmick.

It is very useful at times when you simply want to see what the eye sees.  Quick framing of subjects when you've set the camera to perform how you want.

But I agree that the M series would struggle to incorporate this without losing it's unique identity.

Presumably, if it was developed it would be a new genre for Leica.

 

Just to qualify I have a great fondness for the X-Pro 3 which is a superb camera.  However it cannot compete with the DR and subtle qualities of the Leica M11.  The images are in a different league.  The M11 is also much harder to use, so requires a much greater input of thought and preparation.  

As you say - it's at a completely different price point.  But still a great package for the money in my opinion..

[pegelli]

If you want to shoot with an EVF there's 13 possibilities in a dosen, personally I've never been thrilled by Fuji but Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and even Leica have plenty models to choose from. They're all excellent (even the Fuji's) but are a completely different shooting experience from an M rangefinder. At times the "stick on" EVF on a digital M comes in handy but it's basically a crutch for the case when you don't have a good EVF camera with you. I shoot a lot with EVF mirrorless cameras but let's make sure we don't turn the M into something similar, for me it would take away all the fun of using an M.

Edited August 22, 2022 by pegelli

[Cthulhu]

Here is one thing Leica could consider. But I don’t know how it would be possible. 

On the XPro2 people had the ability to zoom in the OVF. (They took that away from the XPro3 and why the OVF became a stupid gimmick and a lot of people opted just to keep their XPro2)

Imagine how cool if we could change the magnification. The Leica M could have a 0.58x magnification and a 0.92x magnification that I could switch by pushing the lever on the front of the camera (like the XPro). It would be perfect when switching from 28mm to 50mm. 

This would be something useful. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cthulhu

[pegelli]

16 minutes ago, Cthulhu said:

Imagine how cool if we could change the magnification. The Leica M could have a 0.58x magnification and a 0.92x magnification that I could switch by pushing the lever on the front of the camera (like the XPro). It would be perfect when switching from 28mm to 50mm.

Fully agree, that would be much more user friendly and better than the 1,25x and 1,4x "screw in" magnifiers.

[SrMi]

The only reason I bought X-Pro3 is the hybrid OVF, and I use OVF on that camera whenever possible. It has its limitation but is not a gimmick. I cannot understand why anyone would get an X-Pro 3 but use it only in EVF mode. 
With M11, I cannot use the rangefinder with focal lenses wider than 35mm. However, it does not mean that the OVF in digital Leica-s is a gimmick, quite the contrary :).
Adding a hybrid OVF in Leica must preserve the current rangefinder's quality and functionality; otherwise, it is not an option. Furthermore, Leica has said that it is technically impossible to implement a hybrid OVF within these constraints.
It would be nice if we would not need to mount an extra box on the top of the camera when we need to use an EVF (e.g., with wider lenses)

[Herr Barnack]

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Quote

...IMO if you take out the rangefinder then you basically kill the M. Why not just make an ILC version of the Leica Q and call it a day?

 

I don’t know why this fetish to want to turn the Leica M into a Fuji. What’s next? Autofocus? IBIS? 

How many more things would you like to put in the Leica M until you make it into yet another mirrorless camera? 

It’s the limitations of the rangefinder that makes me be so much more creative with it. The more you make it “easier” for me to shoot it the less I would want to. 

If you want a Fuji just get one. They’re much cheaper. 

@Cthulhu  +10,000 on your comments.

There are always people out there who think they are smarter and/or have better ideas for the M camera than the people at Leica Wetzlar whose life's work is advancing the M camera into the next century while perpetuating the rangefinder ethos.  IMHO, they are wrong - otherwise they would be working with Leica's M camera design team in Wetzlar.

The M is what it is - a manual focus coupled rangefinder camera with no EVF, no IBIS, no five million automatic autofocus zones, no IMAX video recording capability, no latte dispenser and no croissant maker.  As it turns out, there are a bunch of people around the world who actually want that kind of camera, as evidenced by 2021 being Leica's best year ever in terms of financial success and cameras sold.

Turns out the photography world is already all stocked up on FujSonCanOlyPanaSigmas - so let the M camera actually be an M camera.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[RexGig0]

I do not doubt that Leica will, eventually, make a camera body that is about M-sized, with an M mount, but no rangefinder mechanism, and an EVF in place of the OVF. Hopefully, it will get its own model designation, other than “M,” followed by a numeral, because it will not have a Messucher. This camera could be marketed as the M-M, for Minus-Messucher. If Leica does this, I wish them financial success, but it will not be my money contributing to that success. I might willingly use zone focusing, with an M-mount body, that has no functioning rangefinder, but, I do not want to frame my shots, by looking at a TV screen. 

Leica, please, keep manufacturing true Messucher cameras, for those of us who love the rangefinder mechanism, in and of itself, and do not wish to use a miniaturized television, to frame our shots.

Admittedly, to be entirely accurate, the Leitz M1 had no rangefinder/Messucher mechanism, but was designated as an M1, anyway. (The M1 was not the first M camera. The M3 was the first Leitz M camera.)

Edited to add: If I were to develop a desire to frame my images, by looking at a miniaturized television, while using M-mount lenses, I believe that I would simply buy an SL-series body, and the adapter to enable using M lenses on the SL body. This SL body would not replace my M cameras, but supplement them. I have already been considering adding an SL-series body, to enable using my better SLR lenses, especially my Zeiss 85mm Otus, and 135mm APO Sonnar, with a Leica sensor.

Edited August 22, 2022 by RexGig0

[ianman]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@Cthulhu  +10,000 on your comments.

Well yes, +10,000 must be approximately the number of threads we’ve had on this exact same subject in the last few years.

All we need now is for someone to tell us what “M” stands for.

 

[IzelPhotography]

Mor

14 minutes ago, ianman said:

All we need now is for someone to tell us what “M” stands for.

More fun?!?

That's what I'm hoping...I just placed my order for my first M (M11)... it could also stand for More Single Malt, which is what I'm drinking to get over the shock!

Edit... I also had an X Pro way back and never used the OVF on it.

Edited August 22, 2022 by IzelPhotography

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, ianman said:

Well yes, +10,000 must be approximately the number of threads we’ve had on this exact same subject in the last few years.

All we need now is for someone to tell us what “M” stands for.

 

- M stands for Messsucher (link to original).

 

[Mike Rawcs]

I found Thorsten’s video interesting and informative. I watched the entire video, and in my opinion he wasn’t promoting a Leica M with an EVF: he was looking at the new features of the M11 (global shutter, much larger-than-necessary battery etc.) and coming to the conclusion that Leica were at least considering producing a camera with an EVF that would use M lenses. He said that he thought it would be a good thing: he didn’t say that it should replace the rangefinder M.

I’ve used, and subsequently sold, more Leica Ms than I care to remember. The primary reason I keep returning to the M is for the small form factor of the cameras and lenses. The reason I keep selling them is because, as a spectacle wearer, I can’t comfortably use the frame-lines other than 50mm. Whichever M fixes this decades-old problem - rangefinder or EVF - will be the Leica for me.

[Cthulhu]

5 hours ago, IzelPhotography said:

Edit... I also had an X Pro way back and never used the OVF on it.

Yep! I used with the 23mm until I changed the lens. You’re like. Oh screw this. 😀 It’s quite gimmicky really. Most people just end up using the EVF and the camera really is just for looks. Their best camera is the XT series. 

[Cthulhu]

45 minutes ago, Mike Rawcs said:

in my opinion he wasn’t promoting a Leica M with an EVF

He said “I think an M11 with a built-in EVF would be a great idea” 27:00

Of course it would be easier to take a picture. But once you go down this road it’s basically over. Nothing should be “easier” on an M. 

Not to mention an “M11 with a built in EVF” is no longer an M camera. It just reinforces the stereotype of the M shooter that we are all just wearing an M just for looks. It looks cool. 

He said he would like it because he Likes the way the M looks without the EVF on the hotshoe  

IMO, the way it is now is the best compromise. Buy the external one if you want the EVF. Maybe just keep making the external EVF better. 

Anyway. Personally I think Leica will give in and give all these Fujifans their EVF. Maybe IBIS too why not. I just hope 

1) They don’t call it an “M”

2) They don’t end up just killing the rangefinder. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Cthulhu

[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, ianman said:

...All we need now is for someone to tell us what “M” stands for.

 

M stands for MyGodwillyoupeoplestoptryingtodiddletheMcameras. 😎

Edited August 22, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Cthulhu]

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

As it turns out, there are a bunch of people around the world who actually want that kind of camera,

Yea. Someone asked me on the internet, why I would spend this much on a camera with less specs. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I just stopped talking. 
 

Even current M users always ask for more tech. IBIS. Or whatever else. More technology to make the shooting easier. But that’s exactly what the M should NOT be. Easy. It should have limitations. It should be hard to get the shot. This is where the creativity comes from. 

Speaking of the Pro3, that camera could even edit the raw file. Edit a raw inside the camera. The whole thing. Out came the jpeg edited. I could create my own preset in the camera. It could track anything that moved. I took it out only on occasions when taking photos (after the initial new toy thing wore off)

Now I have an M. It doesn’t track anything. Can’t focus on its own. Can’t meter when I’m looking through the OVF (only have 1 choice), etc etc. and I take my M everywhere I go. Even if I don’t take photos I have it with me anyway. It’s like an addiction to photography. And I never had that with any other camera. 

[SrMi]

I do not understand how adding IBIS would negatively affect the rangefinder experience in an M camera. It is a less extreme change than eliminating the removable bottom plate, right 😉?

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I do not understand how adding IBIS would negatively affect the rangefinder experience in an M camera. It is a less extreme change than eliminating the removable bottom plate, right 😉?

As I understand it, there simply is no room for IBIS within the traditional M camera dimensions. 

To have IBIS, the M camera dimensions would have to be enlarged, probably to larger than the M240 dimensions, which were disliked by a significant percentage of M camera aficionados.

IMHO Leica needs to keep the M camera within the current size parameters of the M10 and M11.  What we don't need is a bloated, corpulent Leica M.

 

[Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I do not understand how adding IBIS would negatively affect the rangefinder experience in an M camera. It is a less extreme change than eliminating the removable bottom plate, right 😉?

That’s not what I’m saying. Everyone just wants to make it easier. Just get a Fuji. It has everything. 

It supposed to be difficult. Increase your shutter speed and your ISO. Find another solution. Or have it be a bit shaky. “Bresson…Your pictures are too shaky” said no one ever. 

Some guy replied “I would buy a Leica M with an EVF in a second!”… “Leica M” means nothing now. It’s just a brand name. 

Honestly. The fujis have it all. Big bright EVF. IBIS. Everything. You can adapt your Leica lenses too. 

Nothing wrong with ibis. Again it’s just a slippery slope to the end of the Leica M. It’ll end up a Leica M impostor. Just another mirrorless camera but extremely expensive. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

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[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Cthulhu said:

That’s not what I’m saying. Everyone just wants to make it easier. Just get a Fuji. It has everything. 

It supposed to be difficult. Increase your shutter speed and your ISO. Find another solution. Or have it be a bit shaky. “Bresson…Your pictures are too shaky” said no one ever. 

Some guy replied “I would buy a Leica M with an EVF in a second!”… Leica M means nothing now. It’s just a brand name. 

Honestly. The fujis have it all. Big bright EVF. IBIS. Everything. You can adapt your Leica lenses too. 

Everything difficult with Leica M cameras is difficult for a reason. There should be nothing difficult just for the sake of it being difficult. I do not believe that only masochists buy Leica Ms. 
A lack of IBIS does not mean something is wrong with M cameras. However, adding IBIS would also not "break" the camera.
 I am sure that HCB would have embraced IBIS, especially when his hands started shaking. He did not use Leicas because they were challenging to use but because they gave him the best results.

P.S.: I own several Fujis, and a lot is good with them. However, there is a lot that is wrong with them. Fuji would certainly not be my first choice after Leica.