The Fuji Fetish - Leave the M alone

[SrMi]

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18 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

As I understand it, there simply is no room for IBIS within the traditional M camera dimensions. 

To have IBIS, the M camera dimensions would have to be enlarged, probably to larger than the M240 dimensions, which were disliked by a significant percentage of M camera aficionados.

IMHO Leica needs to keep the M camera within the current size parameters of the M10 and M11.  What we don't need is a bloated, corpulent Leica M.

 

Adding IBIS should not come at the expense of the Leica M experience. 

Stefan Daniel said that he would like to have IBIS but that there is no room. However, he does not exclude the possibility that it could be added if the mechanical shutter is eliminated.

I agree with him.

[Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

There should be nothing difficult just for the sake of it being difficult.

Not what I said. Nothing difficult about that to be honest. IBIS is nice to have for video. I wouldn’t find it useful at all for anything else. Actually if it isn’t done correctly it can cause unwanted shaking in your photos. Especially when you try to jam an IBIS system into a small body.

More technology to make it easier just leads to a slippery slope like I said. IBIS doesn’t do much for anyone. Up your shutter speed and ISO. That’s not difficult. The more challenging the more creative you’ll be. 

If you don’t  see that then get a Sony or something else. They make everything super easy. It almost takes the picture for you. 

No mechanical shutter. and IBIS. Great. What next? Maybe a speaker so we can get a fake shutter sound for nostalgia. 

😅 Get a Sony. I don’t understand the fetish with wanting to make the M another Fuji or Sony mirrorless camera. 

EVF (take out the rangefinder). Electronic shutter only. IBIS. 

What’s left of the M at this point? Nothing. Just another mirrorless camera for posers. Just add auto focus then. 

as it is right now the Leica M (the M10) is the simplest and easiest camera to use. The shortest distance between what you see in your mind and the frame you take. 

The more EVFs and electronic shutters and IBIS you add you’re just putting more distance between you and your intent. It becomes just another mirrorless camera. 

That’s what I think. You won’t convince me of anything else and I don’t expect to convince you either. 

You want a Sony-Leica. I don’t. That’s the end of this really. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

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[Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I am sure that HCB would have embraced IBIS, especially when his hands started shaking.

Right. People say “HCB would be taking photos with the iPhone today”. Everyone is a HCB expert nowadays. 

If he was alive today he would be shooting his M3 and tell you to shove that IBIS where the sun don’t shine and leave him to his painting. 😀

We all know what you want and that’s okay. It’s a great camera I’m sure 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And this isn’t a troll. Everything you’ve described so far is the Sony A1. All you have left to desire for the M is autofocus and you have the A1.

ES only

high res EVF

60+MP

IBIS

just AF left and we’re in business. Now we are making rangefinder  impostors just for nostalgia. 

Next is, the grip sucks on a rangefinder. I want a grip. 😅

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

[jakontil]

So for as long as M doesnt lose its body shape, just throw everything into it.. i have the choice to use or not to use it…

what probably bothers me more is the menu complexity 

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, Cthulhu said:

Right. People say “HCB would be taking photos with the iPhone today”. Everyone is a HCB expert nowadays. 

If he was alive today he would be shooting his M3 and tell you to shove that IBIS where the sun don’t shine and leave him to his painting. 😀

We all know what you want and that’s okay. It’s a great camera I’m sure 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And this isn’t a troll. Everything you’ve described so far is the Sony A1. All you have left to desire for the M is autofocus and you have the A1.

ES only

high res EVF

60+MP

IBIS

just AF left and we’re in business. Now we are making rangefinder  impostors just for nostalgia. 

Next is, the grip sucks on a rangefinder. I want a grip. 😅

I own a Sony A1, my last Sony body, and I keep it so I can use the lenses with E-mount. And no, it is not ES only. And no, that is not where I think Leica M should head. I have never requested AF, or lack of OVF, or the overly complicated menu system.

Leica (and RRS) already offers add-on grips, and many seem to like it. 

I do not know whether you are a troll, as you have only joined recently. But you do walk like a troll, quack talk like a troll. So you may be the same repeated offender that got booted from the forum several times already. Time will show.

 

[ianman]

4 hours ago, Cthulhu said:

 But that’s exactly what the M should NOT be. Easy. It should have limitations. It should be hard to get the shot.

Interesting point of view (by which I mean of course “what a load of …“) It’s precisely the simplicity and ease of use which make it the perfect camera to get the shoot. Why would anyone want to make it difficult to get the shoot they want? It makes no sense at all. 

[Cthulhu]

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1 minute ago, ianman said:

Interesting point of view (by which I mean of course “what a load of …“) It’s precisely the simplicity and ease of use which make it the perfect camera to get the shoot. Why would anyone want to make it difficult to get the shoot they want? It makes no sense at all. 

That’s what I just said 

1 hour ago, Cthulhu said:

as it is right now the Leica M (the M10) is the simplest and easiest camera to use. The shortest distance between what you see in your mind and the frame you take. 

See? 

But it is a lot more difficult than an automated sony tracking everything that moves where all you need to do is press a button. 

[Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

own a Sony A1,

I don’t know at this point what you’re talking since you’ve contradicted yourself in every paragraph. A Leica M with hybrid rangefinder/EVF and IBIS. Okay. Hope they make that for ya!

Seems like you’ve owned every camera by the sounds of it. So you know more than me. I’ve only owned 3 (2 fujis and a Panasonic) and now the Leica M10R, last body I’ll ever buy. Classic. As you can see I’m not that much into gear. Other people are chasing specs no matter what. Even with a Leica M they can’t wait for the next thing. 

You think it’ll stop at IBIS and hybrid finders? When they give you that you’ll be wanting more and more. It never stops. 

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

it is not ES only

 That’s the Z9. But we all can see how wonderful the ES works on the M11. 😅

I guess I understand what you want. It’s not what I want. That’s all there is to it. No need to keep talking about this. It’s dumb.  

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

[ianman]

7 minutes ago, Cthulhu said:

See? 

What we see is your narrative changing depending on the answers you get, making even less sense. First the lack of tech makes it difficult to use, which is somehow a good thing creatively. Then you come up with ready made cliches like “the shortest distance blah blah… “ which is obviously a copy/paste.

[Cthulhu]

This is so funny how many people violently want IBIS and an EVF 🤣🤣

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

[Cthulhu]

51 minutes ago, ianman said:

First the lack of tech makes it difficult to use,

I didn’t say that

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Everything difficult with Leica M cameras is difficult for a reason.

He said that 

The only time I used the word difficult was referring to getting a shot yourself vs the automation of cameras. It makes it more fun. 

There is no “narrative”. I’m simply saying I like the M to be left alone. That’s all. 

Obviously you, and a few others, want to kill the M and replace it with a mirrorless M impostor lookalike. 

Unless you think it stops at EVF and IBIS? 😅 Because this is the antithesis of the Leica M. We aren’t supposed to be chasing specs with every generation. But ah well. That’s all people want now. I guess it’s the inevitability of making the M a digital camera. Eventually this was going to happen. 

“make it like a sony” everyone says. Every generation will have to beat the last. More specs. Faster. Better. And a new M every year or 2 years at the most. More megapixels. More IBIS. More EVF to drain the battery. EVF isn’t real life enough. 240fps at 10 million dots. Bigger battery for the drain that will cause. More grips. More and more and more. 

M10R is my last body so. I really don’t care. I just find this all very sad. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cthulhu

[LUF Admin]

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Feel free to keep the discussion going, I'm especially interested in this croissant-maker-feature. Will suggest it the next time I'm in Wetzlar.

Andreas

[IzelPhotography]

I don't think IBIS would detract from the experience, you don't interact with it... it just does it's thing, it's not visible. It will come down to whether the inclusion of IBIS results in removing / changing something that has a fundamental impact on the M experience. That includes making it too thick or tall etc. That said, the Q is stabilised so it may not be impossible, just very difficult at this point in time. A solution is yet to be found.

As far as EVF goes. Not sure about that. I will be buying a Visoflex 2 but that will be for <28mm and low level or awkward angles that would normal require a tilt screen (which I wouldn't want to see) but to combine RF & EVF to a hybrid seems like it maybe a step too far (still can't get the X Pro out of my head). I can also remove the Visoflex when not needed. I think IBIS, if they could find an acceptable solution, is the only other thing I'd like to see at some point. 

While I will use the M for work, it's ultimately a system that I can use to separate work from personal photography. I use a Sony A9ii with Zeiss & GM lenses for work mainly when I just want to get it done. M will be about taking my time and enjoying the experience more... it's ME time. There... I've inadvertently found the meaning of the M 😂

Edited August 23, 2022 by IzelPhotography

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, IzelPhotography said:

I don't think IBIS would detract from the experience, you don't interact with it... it just does it's thing. It will come down to whether the inclusion of IBIS results in removing / changing something that has a fundamental impact on the M experience. That includes making it too thick or tall etc. That said, the Q is stabilised so it may not be impossible, just very difficult at this point in time. A solution is yet to be found.

As far as EVF goes. Not sure about that. I will be buying a Visoflex 2 but that will be for <28mm and low level or awkward angles that would normal require a tilt screen (which I wouldn't want to see) but to combine RF & EVF to a hybrid seems like it maybe a step too far (still can't get the X Pro out of my head). I think IBIS, if they could find an acceptable solution, is the only other thing I'd like to see at some point. 

While I will use the M for work, it is ultimately a system that I can use to separate work from personal photography. I use a Sony A9ii with Zeiss & GM lenses for work mainly when I just want to get it done. M will be about taking my time and enjoying the experience more... it's ME time. There... I've inadvertently found the meaning of the M!

Note that Q has OIS not IBIS. As Leica said, IBIS could be possible if the mechanical shutter is removed. 
I do not think that a sufficiently good hybrid viewfinder is currently possible for digital Ms, and I also like the tiltable EVF.

An EVF only M mount camera is possible and would likely sell very well. Unfortunately, such a camera may be detrimental for rangefinder models as it would “steal” rangefinder sales.

[jakontil]

I wish they wont remove the mechanical shutter, and evf remains an option since i see myself using the ovf very most of the time 

[IzelPhotography]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Note that Q has OIS not IBIS. As Leica said, IBIS could be possible if the mechanical shutter is removed. 
I do not think that a sufficiently good hybrid viewfinder is currently possible for digital Ms, and I also like the tiltable EVF.

An EVF only M mount camera is possible and would likely sell very well. Unfortunately, such a camera may be detrimental for rangefinder models as it would “steal” rangefinder sales.

Q - Of course, OIS rather than IBIS.

Like you, I don't think I'd feel comfortable with a EVF only M. If they wanted to do this they'd be better off looking at a separate camera or... as they've done, provide an EVF to add to it for those times it's needed. I guess it depends on whether they could do it so as it didn't impact at all on the experience (the hybrid) but if it meant changing the RF experience, then no. If I really need an EVF I can always use the VisoFlex or use one of my other cameras.

[Guest]

The thing is, no matter how good, ( and who decides what is "good" is when the EVF is calibrated upon installation ? ), an EVF will always "lie". I've used many types in many differing cameras, both cinema digital and still cameras, from very high professional quality to "consumer" grade and I have yet to find one that correctly depicts what I can see when I take my eye off of the EVF-VF and look at the scene before me. There's always a shift in colour, contrast and density not to mention lag that can plague even the best digital cinema EVFs. You cannot properly determine a scene through an EVF, precise framing perhaps, but everything else no. An EVF is only after all giving you an interpretation via tuned electronic circuitry of what the sensor sees. But OK, I can believe that an EVF-M of some sort or other will be offered some-time or other, but it's not for me because I am wedded to an optical finder whether that's with a M as they are now or DSLRs like my Nikon D810 and D610 that were among the last of the "breed" before Nikon too went mirror-less. I tried hard to like the SL's because I could use my M lenses with one, ( the SL native glass being too large and heavy for my taste), but found that I couldn't make that step away from the OVF/mirrors in the Nikons. If anyone compares the SL2 to a S2/3 VF you'd understand what I am saying here..........However I am not one to bemoan such possible "progress", and I wish Leica good fortune if they do go this route with a future M model, I just will not be trying to jump the queue.

Edited August 23, 2022 by petermullett

[Mike Rawcs]

I don't think that Thorsten meant that an EVF Leica based on am M11 would replace the rangefinder M - just provide an alternative. That's for him to clarify, of course.

I had and X-Pro3 - Hardly ever used the OVF.

The viewfinder on the Fuji X camera is not pretty, but I can use it with spectacles.

The M camera looks absolutely lovely, but the viewfinder is useless for me except for 50mm.

Don't care about IBIS - I would much rather have a sensor-shake dust removal system. 

Don't really care about EVF - just fix the M viewfinder - but that would spoil the look of the camera. I should probably try the M with the external EVF, but I'll wait to see what the M11-P brings to the table.

[Mike Rawcs]

I've just had a thought. I'm developing a cataract, which means that when I have a replacement lens fitted, I may not need spectacles. Leave the M viewfinder alone!

2 hours ago, petermullett said:

The thing is, no matter how good, ( and who decides what is "good" is when the EVF is calibrated upon installation ? ), an EVF will always "lie". I've used many types in many differing cameras, both cinema digital and still cameras, from very high professional quality to "consumer" grade and I have yet to find one that correctly depicts what I can see when I take my eye off of the EVF-VF and look at the scene before me. There's always a shift in colour, contrast and density not to mention lag that can plague even the best digital cinema EVFs. You cannot properly determine a scene through an EVF, precise framing perhaps, but everything else no. An EVF is only after all giving you an interpretation via tuned electronic circuitry of what the sensor sees. But OK, I can believe that an EVF-M of some sort or other will be offered some-time or other, but it's not for me because I am wedded to an optical finder whether that's with a M as they are now or DSLRs like my Nikon D810 and D610 that were among the last of the "breed" before Nikon too went mirror-less. I tried hard to like the SL's because I could use my M lenses with one, ( the SL native glass being too large and heavy for my taste), but found that I couldn't make that step away from the OVF/mirrors in the Nikons. If anyone compares the SL2 to a S2/3 VF you'd understand what I am saying here..........However I am not one to bemoan such possible "progress", and I wish Leica good fortune if they do go this route with a future M model, I just will not be trying to jump the queue.

A very reasoned point of view, Peter.

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[jakontil]

1 hour ago, MikeMike88 said:

The simplicity of Leica menu system is a real treat to me . 

Yeah exactly.. the M11 with its sub menus already worrying me but luckily their shortcuts are treated simple 

now i wish the M10r is updated with such shortcuts