The Fuji Fetish - Leave the M alone

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, atournas said:

Competition and the markets play strangle games. Wasn't it some years ago when a Leica "top top man" declared in an interview that Leica would never produce a mirrorless camera? Anyone else in this forum recollecting that interview?

I do not remember any such statement. Leica SL (the first "real" mirrorless Leica?) was launched in 2015, and it seems Leica is working on a mirrorless S3 successor.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I believe the M cameras are mirrorless cameras. Before some expert says “It does have a mirror” the peepee little mirror in the rangefinder mechanism doesn’t count.

It is commonly understood that mirrorless means a camera with an electronic finder. Calling M a mirrorless camera, even though theoretically correct, is confusing. Or maybe M stands for mirrorless ;-)?

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[tom0511]

Imo there are enough evf cameras with small formfactor on the market already. Fuji, Sony, …and others.

for me the actual solution -optical rangefinder with the option of using an additional, external evf is perfect.

I would not want to make ANY compromise in the ovf design, or size, to ‚gain‘ a hybrid viewfinder. 
if Leica believes there are enough customers who do want an evf M camera, please make just this as an additional model, but leave the M rangefinder what it is.

 

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

It is commonly understood that mirrorless means a camera with an electronic finder. Calling M a mirrorless camera, even though theoretically correct, is confusing. Or maybe M stands for mirrorless ;-)?

Only for people easily confused.

[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, jdlaing said:

I believe the M cameras are mirrorless cameras. Before some expert says “It does have a mirror” the peepee little mirror in the rangefinder mechanism doesn’t count.

Ah, yes - the much ballyhooed Peepee kleiner Spiegel.

Poor Sony mirrorless cameras - they must suffer through life barren of even the kleinerest of peepees.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Santos]

Ok This Is Heretical To Say As A Collector And Exclusive Leica Photographer (Pro I Guess Now). I'm 33, Just Blessed With Good Luck To Afford And Obtain Everything Leica Offered So Far (Except The S Series And That 75 Noct!). I Have Recently Been Scared Of Loosing My Sight. Well To Be More Precise Diminishing. I'm Not Loosing In The Numbers Game But In Other Aspects. I'm Stuck With Wearing Green Filter Over My Eyes At All Times (Not So Cool In Clubs Anymore, So I Chose The John Lennon Life And Became A Hippy). And Switched To Exclusively BnW Because I Don't Like Posting Somethings Others Will See Different.

Anyways I Shoot Every Leica System (CM To M11), And Have At Least 1 Copy Of Each Focal Length. My Latest Purchase Was An SL2-S, And Once I Mounted My Favorite Lens (50 F1.2) I Felt To Say It Mildly So: Frustrated. Yes I Use EVF With The M's But Lets Be Real, It Looks Bad, It Makes More People Stop You Asking For Permits (Makes The Cameras More Pro Looking I Guess) And Slows Down Things.

So The Leica Camera I Dislike The Most Is A (Q2) Got Both Color And Mono And Hate Both. But The EVF From Them (I Know Its On The M Now, But Believe It Or Not My Clients And I Care About The Looks Of The Camera). They Come To Me For My "Old Gear  ".

I Actually Started My Journey Into Photography Being Gifted And X-pro, (And Yes The Euro Trip Had Nothing To Do With It But I Love Prague!) And Went Ahead And Purchased An All Brass 90 Elmarit ( And Brass Filter Too!) For Like 1.2k Bucks And To This Day Its Perfect! This From A Collector Who To This I Trade With (Got A Lenny for 75mm 5k Bucks From Him Cause He Knows I Don't Ever Sell And I Always Just Trade With Him So He Broke A Set. Now That I Think About It.... Isn't That How They Get You Hooked On Crack!).

Also Mr. Thorsten Was My Gateway Into Leica. Just Got 2 More Hoods. (Sir Now That I Reached 10 Hoods Hit Me With A Discount If You See This! And I Know Last Time Didn't Work In Dubai, But Lets See You Next Year!) And I Respect His Opinions And Hussle (Although The Classes And Presets Aren't For Me He Gives Out Enough For Free!). He is One Of The Reasons I Went From Fuji, To Leica And Fuji. And Now With The X-Pro3 (I Hate It! Maybe More Than The Q2) And Cancellation Of The CL, Leica And PIXII. I Made My CL Into IR (And Scored A Meeting With One Of Directors In Leica. Leica ME Are The Best. I'm Thinking 240 IR For NExt Project Ehehehe). 

Ok To The Point, I Have To Use 1.2x Mag On My Cameras When Shooting Nocti. And If Not Properly Lit For The Last Year I Had To Use EVF With My M's  (For Some Reason I Can Get Away With M9 And Magnifier.

)Hybrid EVF Doesn't Work Its A Gimmick (For Me! I Don't Impose This On Others!) But Having A Constant One And Up Marking It As Leica M-E Serious Successor (Maybe An IBIS? Yeah With The Limitations Of The Viewfinder Gone It Can Be Done. Just Like How Mirrors Where A Hassle For Engineers We In Age Where The OVF Mechanism Takes Too Much Space [Trust Me I'm A Rocket Scientists XD]. Hecks, They Can Go Back To M262 Body And Put A Dial Up Left Or Something Or Keep It As A Button, Never An Issue When Using The M9! Also The Info Button! I Need My Mortal Combat Bars Back! (No More Q Menu!) Or That Sweet Silver Dial In The Back (An EVF Leica Then, MD E Leica.. Stick To The Plan Saint!)

Sorry For Wall Of Text, Very Passionate About The Issue (I Don't Want To Stop Using M's Cause Of My Sight So I'm A Bit Greedy! Atleast We Will Keep The Lenses Mechanical, And Make A More If I Know Leica And I Do Purist M's Which Will Cost More Of Course). Also I Apologize For My Weird Iteration (Cant Help It My Brain Is Weird Lol). 

P.S. I Don't Work For Leica And Am Not An Ambassador Or Something Fancy Like That. Just Leica Middle East Are Too Generous And Kind With My Weird Requests. I Have To Say I Am Somewhat (On a Very Small Scale) Involved With PIXII Development And Can Say That The M Mount Future In Leica And Out Is Bright (Unlike The Lines I Keep Seeing Less Off Yearly XD)! Oh And Any Questions You Have Regarding Leica/PIXII And Current Lens Line-Up I Can Help! Just Shoot Me A Message.

S.T.Keeler. 

[Santos]

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Apologize, For Glaring Grammatical And Structural Errors. Should Have Taken The Time To Proof Read. Fixed Unforgivable Part.

"So The Leica Camera I Dislike The Most Is The Q2 (Got Both Color And Mono And Hate Both) However It Has An Amazing EVF. The EVF From The Q2 (I Know Its On The M Now). But Believe It Or Not My Clients And I Care About The Looks Of The Camera They Come To Me For My "Old Gear  ".

I Actually Started My Journey Into Photography Being Gifted An X-Pro, (And Yes The "Euro Trip" Movie Had Nothing To Do With It... But Prague Is Still My Favorite City In EU!) And Went Ahead And Purchased An All Brass 90 Elmarit (And Brass Filter Too!) For Like 1.2k Bucks And To This Day Its Perfect! This From A Collector Who To This I Trade With (Got The Brass Lenny Kravitz 75mm For 5k Bucks From Him Cause He Knows I Don't Ever Sell And I Always Just Trade With Him So He Broke A Set. Now That I Think About It.... Isn't That How They Get You Hooked On Crack!).

Also Mr. Thorsten Was My Gateway Into Leica. Just Got 2 More Hoods. (Sir Now That I Reached 10 Hoods Hit Me With A Discount If You See This! And I Know Last Time Didn't Work In Dubai, But Lets See You Next Year!) And I Respect His Opinions And Hussle (Although The Classes And Presets Aren't For Me He Gives Out Enough For Free!). He is One Of The Reasons I Went From Fuji, To Leica And Fuji. And Now With The X-Pro3 (I Hate It! Maybe More Than The Q2) And Cancellation Of The CL, Leica And PIXII. I Made My CL Into IR (And Scored A Meeting With One Of Directors In Leica. Leica ME Are The Best. I'm Thinking 240 IR For Next Project Ehehehe)."

S.T.Keeler. 

[atournas]

23 hours ago, atournas said:

[...] Wasn't it some years ago when a Leica "top top man" declared in an interview that Leica would never produce a mirrorless camera? Anyone else in this forum recollecting that interview? [...]

I ran an Internet search about such an interview, all the way back to 2009, and it looks like I was wrong. There were two such interviews actually, but the claim "... never produce..." was about a (cheap by Leica standards) Compact System Camera (CSC). Sometimes, a CSC is called a mirrorless, hence my error.

But this thread has revealed that there is no consensus, at least in this forum, as to what sort of camera should be termed "mirrorless." I prefer to use the term for a camera that is just like a SLR except for the mirror/pentaprism part. Therefore, such a mirrorless body accepts different lenses, etc. The other two mirrorless-like cameras are then the compact cameras and, of course, the rangefinders.

But, I guess there is no harm in extending the use of the term, as long as no confusion results from that.

Edited August 25, 2022 by atournas

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, atournas said:

I ran an Internet search about such an interview, all the way back to 2009, and it looks like I was wrong. There were two such interviews actually, but the claim "... never produce..." was about a (cheap by Leica standards) Compact System Camera (CSC). Sometimes, a CSC is called a mirrorless, hence my error.

But this thread has revealed that there is no consensus, at least in this forum, as to what sort of camera should be termed "mirrorless." I prefer to use the term for a camera that is just like a SLR except for the mirror/pentaprism part. Therefore, such a mirrorless body accepts different lenses, etc. The other two mirrorless-like cameras are then the compact cameras and, of course, the rangefinders.

But, I guess there is no harm in extending the use of the term, as long as no confusion results from that.

Most usage of the term mirrorless does not include rangefinders. For example, these excerpts are from the Wikipedia entry for Mirrorless Camera:

About M9 and R-D1: They were some of the first digital lens-interchangeable cameras without a reflex mirror, but they are not mirrorless cameras because they did not use a digital display system for live preview.

It is also common to differentiate between Leica mirrorless and Leica rangefinder cameras. IMO using that differentiation makes discussions less ambiguous. 

 

[hdmesa]

19 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

Most usage of the term mirrorless does not include rangefinders. For example, these excerpts are from the Wikipedia entry for Mirrorless Camera:

About M9 and R-D1: They were some of the first digital lens-interchangeable cameras without a reflex mirror, but they are not mirrorless cameras because they did not use a digital display system for live preview.

It is also common to differentiate between Leica mirrorless and Leica rangefinder cameras. IMO using that differentiation makes discussions less ambiguous. 

 

I don’t think having Live View is the right criteria for a camera being called mirrorless. Many DSLRs can lock up the mirror and provide live view to the rear LCD.

The digital Ms are mirrorless, but that’s not their defining feature, it’s the rangefinder. So I call them a digital rangefinder or mirrorless rangefinder.

Mirrorless is a strange term now since we live in a post-DSLR world. Odd that the term to define the current tech should be about something it doesn’t have. It won’t be long before we will just call them digital cameras and drop the word mirrorless.

Edited August 25, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I don’t think having Live View is the right criteria for a camera being called mirrorless. Many DSLRs can lock up the mirror and provide live view to the rear LCD.

The linked articles also says: The camera does not have a reflex mirror or optical viewfinder like a digital single-lens reflex (DSLR) camera

28 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The digital Ms are mirrorless, but that’s not their defining feature, it’s the rangefinder. So I call them a digital rangefinder or mirrorless rangefinder.

If you call them mirrorless rangefinder, then there should be non-mirrorless rangefinders as well. AFAIK, all rangefinders are mirrorless, so the additional qualification does not make sense.

28 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Mirrorless is a strange term now since we live in a post-DSLR world. Odd that the term to define the current tech should be about something it doesn’t have. It won’t be long before we will just call them digital cameras and drop the word mirrorless.

I hope that DSLRs will always be around, or at least until EVFs reach the quality of the OVFs -- if they ever do.

Edited August 25, 2022 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The linked articles also says: The camera does not have a reflex mirror or optical viewfinder like a digital single-lens reflex (DSLR) camera

If you call them mirrorless rangefinder, then there should be non-mirrorless rangefinders as well. AFAIK, all rangefinders are mirrorless, so the additional qualification does not make sense.

I hope that DSLRs will always be around, or at least until EVFs reach the quality of the OVFs -- if they ever do.

Good points.

I do think most DSLRs are dead as a new product. IIRC, Canon has said as much concerning their future plans. But I’ll bet Nikon continues to produce the D850 for many more years, much like they kept the F6 in production for so long after most everyone had transitioned away from film to digital.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Good points.

I do think most DSLRs are dead as a new product. IIRC, Canon has said as much concerning their future plans. But I’ll bet Nikon continues to produce the D850 for many more years, much like they kept the F6 in production for so long after most everyone had transitioned away from film to digital.

Pentax continues to make DSLRs. Their bodies and lenses are marvelous. Then there are the gorgeous OVFs of H6D and S3, still being manufactured.

However, only Pentax seems to be committed to launching new DSLRs. 

[John Robinson]

Seems to me the OP wants an interchangeable M-mount camera about the same size or smaller than M-series but with an electronic viewfinder,  Sounds like the Leica CL.  Oh, that's not full-frame and seems to be discontinued.  A full-frame camera?  Oh, there is the SL etc but maybe they're too big?  A mini-SL the same size as an M or CL but with a built-in M-mount, leaving out video, IBIS, dual card slots etc?  There's a thought.  But is there a market for it that would justify the investment Leica would have to make (presumably by adapting the Q-series)?    

[Herr Barnack]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:35 AM, Santos said:

Apologize, For Glaring Grammatical And Structural Errors. Should Have Taken The Time To Proof Read. Fixed Unforgivable Part.

"So The Leica Camera I Dislike The Most Is The Q2 (Got Both Color And Mono And Hate Both) However It Has An Amazing EVF. The EVF From The Q2 (I Know Its On The M Now). But Believe It Or Not My Clients And I Care About The Looks Of The Camera They Come To Me For My "Old Gear  ".

I Actually Started My Journey Into Photography Being Gifted An X-Pro, (And Yes The "Euro Trip" Movie Had Nothing To Do With It... But Prague Is Still My Favorite City In EU!) And Went Ahead And Purchased An All Brass 90 Elmarit (And Brass Filter Too!) For Like 1.2k Bucks And To This Day Its Perfect! This From A Collector Who To This I Trade With (Got The Brass Lenny Kravitz 75mm For 5k Bucks From Him Cause He Knows I Don't Ever Sell And I Always Just Trade With Him So He Broke A Set. Now That I Think About It.... Isn't That How They Get You Hooked On Crack!).

Also Mr. Thorsten Was My Gateway Into Leica. Just Got 2 More Hoods. (Sir Now That I Reached 10 Hoods Hit Me With A Discount If You See This! And I Know Last Time Didn't Work In Dubai, But Lets See You Next Year!) And I Respect His Opinions And Hussle (Although The Classes And Presets Aren't For Me He Gives Out Enough For Free!). He is One Of The Reasons I Went From Fuji, To Leica And Fuji. And Now With The X-Pro3 (I Hate It! Maybe More Than The Q2) And Cancellation Of The CL, Leica And PIXII. I Made My CL Into IR (And Scored A Meeting With One Of Directors In Leica. Leica ME Are The Best. I'm Thinking 240 IR For Next Project Ehehehe)."

S.T.Keeler. 

@Santos It seems obvious that your place in the Leicaverse is in the M camera niche.  I would encourage you to embrace that, accept it and not second guess it or brain f**k  it.  It is what it is and there is nothing "wrong" with that.

I have found that in my photography, I must first and foremost answer to myself and to no one else.  Otherwise I am nothing but an organ grinder's monkey with a camera, dancing to someone else's jig - and that's no way to live life. 

It is also diametrically opposed to the concept of living the photographic life and to the tenets of artistic creativity in general.

As the saying goes, "To thine own self be true."

[Santos]

6 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@Santos It seems obvious that your place in the Leicaverse is in the M camera niche.  I would encourage you to embrace that, accept it and not second guess it or brain f**k  it.  It is what it is and there is nothing "wrong" with that.

I have found that in my photography, I must first and foremost answer to myself and to no one else.  Otherwise I am nothing but an organ grinder's monkey with a camera, dancing to someone else's jig - and that's no way to live life. 

It is also diametrically opposed to the concept of living the photographic life and to the tenets of artistic creativity in general.

As the saying goes, "To thine own self be true."

Brother, You Just Made My Day! And Its My Cake Day You Psychic Kind Stranger. 

[V23]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:34 AM, Herr Barnack said:

As I understand it, there simply is no room for IBIS within the traditional M camera dimensions. 

To have IBIS, the M camera dimensions would have to be enlarged, probably to larger than the M240 dimensions, which were disliked by a significant percentage of M camera aficionados.

IMHO Leica needs to keep the M camera within the current size parameters of the M10 and M11.  What we don't need is a bloated, corpulent Leica M.

 

So, that indicates that Leica does not have technology and engineering skills to implement IBIS into currant size M body, maybe one day. Some as they stated that it is not possible to fit full frame sensor into M when they made an M8.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

So, that indicates that Leica does not have technology and engineering skills to implement IBIS into currant size M body...

I don't think that's Leica's fault - hardware is the size that it is.  The M camera footprint is what it is. 

As technology advances, hardware becomes smaller and smaller.  Cell phones used to be the size of a brick; now they are about 1/10th that size.  One day, the IBIS hardware may well become miniaturized to the point that it will fit into the M camera footprint.

Until that day, I still manage to make some nice images with my M-P 240 and M10M every now and then - even without IBIS.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[jakontil]

I rather have a sufficiently big battery capacity over IBIS, like m240, now M11 

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[SrMi]

31 minutes ago, jakontil said:

I rather have a sufficiently big battery capacity over IBIS, like m240, now M11 

IBIS should not use much battery. Highest usage of battery is by EVFs, followed by LCDs.