Dust on sensor on new M11? anything to worry about?

[hdmesa]

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2 minutes ago, Gobert said:

Because the sensor is always exposed when the cam is switched on.

There’s a lens attached when the sensor is open. Shutter is closed when power is off and when changing lenses. The sensor is open on previous Ms when taking a shot. So no difference via this topic.

In fact I found the M11 to collect less dust than my M10-R did by a considerable margin.

[lucerne]

5 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

A good quality one does not ingest dust.

So where does it get its air from?.

This thread is hilarious.

[hdmesa]

Fun fact: all new digital M cameras I’ve bought came with dust on the sensor. Always do this right out of the box: use the cleaning option in the menu to open the shutter, and with the camera sensor pointing downward, blow it off with a good filtered blower. 

Not sure why Leica M cameras specifically always have dust on the sensor from the factory, but I’ve not experienced that with the SL cameras. May have something to do with the thin cover glass on the M cameras makes the dust more noticeable at larger f-stops versus the SL.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lucerne said:

So where does it get its air from?.

This thread is hilarious.

FFS, they are filtered. Keep up 🤡

[jdlaing]

Just now, lucerne said:

So where does it get its air from?.

This thread is hilarious.

A one way valve on the bottom. I’ve been using these for many years and they work extremely well. 

As advertised:

The large black Rocket Air Blaster Dust-Removal Tool from Giottos safely  blows clean air to eliminate dust from sensitive or hard-to-reach surfaces, such as those on lenses, cameras, filters, and keyboards. It is crafted from durable, natural, and environmentally-friendly silicone rubber that offers a virtually instantaneous rebound for a nearly continuous stream of clean air. Its nozzle can be removed for cleaning and is 2.25" long. It features an opening designed to eliminate whistling. A one-way valve on the bottom brings in clean air and does not redistribute dust. Additionally, the blaster stands up on its own and can be set on a flat surface without rolling around. 

[jdlaing]

3 minutes ago, lucerne said:

So where does it get its air from?.

This thread is hilarious.

The hilarious part is some not paying attention and reading what has been said instead of cherry picking what they want to read.

[hdmesa]

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1 minute ago, jdlaing said:

A one way valve on the bottom. I’ve been using these for many years and they work extremely well. 

As advertised:

The large black Rocket Air Blaster Dust-Removal Tool from Giottos safely  blows clean air to eliminate dust from sensitive or hard-to-reach surfaces, such as those on lenses, cameras, filters, and keyboards. It is crafted from durable, natural, and environmentally-friendly silicone rubber that offers a virtually instantaneous rebound for a nearly continuous stream of clean air. Its nozzle can be removed for cleaning and is 2.25" long. It features an opening designed to eliminate whistling. A one-way valve on the bottom brings in clean air and does not redistribute dust. Additionally, the blaster stands up on its own and can be set on a flat surface without rolling around. 

Rocket is not a filtered blower. One way valve just pulls in dust from the back end of the blower instead of from the tip. Better than nothing, but not as good as filtered intake.

[lucerne]

It it allows air in, it will also allow dust.

The Giotto is good but it doesn’t do magic.  Don’t believe you are the only user with both types.  As usual, jdlaing,  you like to have the last word.

Edited August 17, 2022 by lucerne

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, lucerne said:

It it allows air in, it will also allow dust.

The Giotto is good but it doesn’t do magic.  Don’t believe you are the only user with both types.  As usual, you like to have the last word.

The Rocket (Giotto) is not filtered, so of course it ingests dust. Its one-way valve is a half-measure.

EyeLead is filtered so it only ingests dust that is smaller than allowed by the filter, which in my experience is so small it doesn’t show up even at f/22. So for practical purposes, it filters out all dust that would be visible at small f-stops.

Edited August 17, 2022 by hdmesa
Grammar

[lucerne]

Just now, hdmesa said:

The Rocket (Giotto) is not filtered, so of course it ingests dust. Its one-way valve is a half-measure.

EyeLead is filtered so it only ingests dust that is smaller than allowed by the filter, which in my experience is so small it doesn’t show up even at f/22. So for practical purposes, it filters out all dust that would be visible at small f-stops.

My comment was directed at jdlaing.  I have both types. 

[lincoln_m]

Those are oily/grease spots I’m sure. The perfect circle gives it away. Maybe from breathe when changing lens. We probably have to wear a face mask and point the camera down when changing lens. I have similar on my M10, ah but wait, the M10 has the shutter in the way when changing lens. Does the M11 have the shutter blocking the sensor when changing lens?

either way these oil drops must be floating in the air (or be coming from the shutter lubricant itself) and maybe attracted by any static charge on the sensor.

I used one of those wipe sticks with cleaning liquid on M10 and it did remove many of the bigger droplets. I try not to do it often just in case.

that’s a good point about unfiltered rocket blowers that may be replacing actual dust with very fine oily drops.

If the lens bayonet is oily that might be where the oil particles come from to float into the sensor during exposure. I guess using Live view gives it more time to happen. 
 

the only answer is to use our cameras in a vacuum but then the photos will have no atmosphere!

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lincoln_m said:

Those are oily/grease spots I’m sure. The perfect circle gives it away. Maybe from breathe when changing lens. We probably have to wear a face mask and point the camera down when changing lens. I have similar on my M10, ah but wait, the M10 has the shutter in the way when changing lens. Does the M11 have the shutter blocking the sensor when changing lens?

either way these oil drops must be floating in the air (or be coming from the shutter lubricant itself) and maybe attracted by any static charge on the sensor.

I used one of those wipe sticks with cleaning liquid on M10 and it did remove many of the bigger droplets. I try not to do it often just in case.

that’s a good point about unfiltered rocket blowers that may be replacing actual dust with very fine oily drops.

If the lens bayonet is oily that might be where the oil particles come from to float into the sensor during exposure. I guess using Live view gives it more time to happen. 
 

the only answer is to use our cameras in a vacuum but then the photos will have no atmosphere!

M11 shutter is closed when changing lenses, same as previous M cameras.

[lucerne]

Just now, lincoln_m said:

Those are oily/grease spots I’m sure. The perfect circle gives it away. Maybe from breathe when changing lens. We probably have to wear a face mask and point the camera down when changing lens. I have similar on my M10, ah but wait, the M10 has the shutter in the way when changing lens. Does the M11 have the shutter blocking the sensor when changing lens?

either way these oil drops must be floating in the air (or be coming from the shutter lubricant itself) and maybe attracted by any static charge on the sensor.

I used one of those wipe sticks with cleaning liquid on M10 and it did remove many of the bigger droplets. I try not to do it often just in case.

that’s a good point about unfiltered rocket blowers that may be replacing actual dust with very fine oily drops.

If the lens bayonet is oily that might be where the oil particles come from to float into the sensor during exposure. I guess using Live view gives it more time to happen. 
 

the only answer is to use our cameras in a vacuum but then the photos will have no atmosphere!

I agree.  Neither blower can remove the blemish on the sensor.  If it bothers the owner, send the camera back for replacement.  
 

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, lucerne said:

My comment was directed at jdlaing.  I have both types. 

Gotcha. Sounds like we’re on the same page.

Sounded like JD was saying the Rocket was filtered, which I don’t believe it is.

Rocket is fine for casual things like blowing large dust off the front of the lens or cleaning off the exterior of my camera. I just never use it to blow off the sensor.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lucerne said:

I agree.  Neither blower can remove the blemish on the sensor.  If it bothers the owner, send the camera back for replacement.  
 

I think they should try harder to blow off the sensor, though. I’ve had stubborn dust spots that looked just like oil or some other type of wet spot on the sensor, but they blew off with repeated effort and by getting the blower tip pretty close to the sensor. Of course they could get a high magnification sensor loupe if they want to verify. 

[SrMi]

44 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Why use a blower that ingests dust only to blow it back out again? I guess if you’re in a very sterile environment without much air movement then filtration may be less needed.

When I used the Rocket, it would blow off the big chunks of dust from the sensor but it never fully got rid of the pesky very small dust spots that are really annoying at f/11-16, especially on a monochrome sensor like the M10M.

I still recommend you try one — it’s really good at fully clearing off everything from the sensor with only a few puffs. 

I do not clean sensors in a dusty environment. As confirmed by my experience, the chance that the blower sucks in the dust is minimal.
I have a Visible Dust filtered blower. However, I find it annoying to use.
Getting rid of small, pesky spots does not depend on filtering.  
I just got the Nitecore Blowerbaby, but I did not have a chance to use it.

[jaapv]

39 minutes ago, Gobert said:

Because the sensor is always exposed when the cam is switched on.

Like most mirrorless. - but in practice that does not make a difference. When dust is in the vicinity of the sensor, the movement of the shutter will distribute it, no matter if it starts from closed or open.

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Like most mirrorless. - but in practice that does not make a difference. When dust is in the vicinity of the sensor, the movement of the shutter will distribute it, no matter if it starts from closed or open.

What would make a real difference would be an ultrasonic sensor shake dust removal feature, but maybe there’s not enough room inside the M body for that. Not sure why SL cameras don’t have that, though, perhaps a lack of technical expertise or lack of access to the required components.

That said, the closed shutter does help when changing lenses in less than ideal environments. Not everything that lands on the shutter gets thrown onto the sensor. It can stick anywhere inside and get blown out later.

[chasdfg]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

M11 shutter is closed when changing lenses, same as previous M cameras.

Unless you change lenses without turning the camera off, which I what I did when I first got the camera. I tested all my lenses for focus accuracy shortly after I got the camera, forgetting that the M11 sensor is exposed when the camera is turned on (vs say M240 or M10) and ended up with more dust on the sensor. Most cleared up with a blower though. Never had this issue with my previous Ms. Now I make a conscious effort to make sure my camera is turned off before swapping lenses. 

I would think that since the shutter is open when the camera is turned on, there's a higher chance of dust which has somehow entered the chamber to land on the sensor. On other digital Ms the dust may be in the chamber but settle somewhere else...though since the dust still in the chamber they may land on the sensor at some point (though much less likely).

One thing I miss on the M11 is the dust detection feature. I found that very useful and reliable on my previous Ms. 

In any case I generally don't shoot past f5.6 so dust is not so much of an issue anyway.

Edited August 18, 2022 by chasdfg

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, chasdfg said:

Unless you change lenses without turning the camera off, which I what I did when I first got the camera. I tested all my lenses for focus accuracy shortly after I got the camera, forgetting that the M11 sensor is exposed when the camera is turned on (vs say M240 or M10) and ended up with more dust on the sensor. Most cleared up with a blower though. Never had this issue with my previous Ms. Now I make a conscious effort to make sure my camera is turned off before swapping lenses. 

I would think that since the shutter is open when the camera is turned on, there's a higher chance of dust which has somehow entered the chamber to land on the sensor. On other digital Ms the dust may be in the chamber but settle somewhere else...though since the dust still in the chamber they may land on the sensor at some point (though much less likely).

One thing I miss on the M11 is the dust detection feature. I found that very useful and reliable on my previous Ms. 

In any case I generally don't shoot past f5.6 so dust is not so much of an issue anyway.

Turning off the camera when changing the lenses is always a good idea, and most manufacturers recommend it (see page 35 of the M11 manual). In addition to being exposed, an active sensor probably attracts more dust (electrostatic charge).