Thinking of getting an SL2(s) - Need help

[jplomley]

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When using mechanical shutter, I disable IBIS as that just made things worse. Almost like a constructive interference waveform, wherein the IBIS tries to compensate the vibration from the shutter shock, but ends up making it worse.

[jplomley]

47 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I wonder if that's an unintended consequence of IBIS, since the sensor isn't fixed to the shutter.

Last year they released more new bodies and lenses than most major players (especially Sony Nikon and Canon!), and they were heroes. This year they are "zeroes." The good news is that they've now learned not to announce stuff they can't produce. The aforementioned "big 3" have had huge problems with that lately: lots of announcements, nothing new on dealer shelves.

Yeah, but the 21/24 were announced well before the pandemic, then pushed, then pushed again and now we've not seen a clearly delineated road-map for some time. So I've simply lost confidence in their commitment to the product line, particularly in lieu of all the discounting we have seen of late and the abandonment of the TL/CL line. I'm actually rather shocked that the S system is still being kept afloat. Seems they are hanging on in quiet desperation for that product line, but the ship has sailed. 

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[insomnia]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb jplomley:

When using mechanical shutter, I disable IBIS as that just made things worse. Almost like a constructive interference waveform, wherein the IBIS tries to compensate the vibration from the shutter shock, but ends up making it worse.

Must be your copy. I know what a sharp image looks like and I have absolutely zero issues with that on the SL2-S. I had followed the discussion here and I've tried 5-6 scenarios with mechanical and electronic shutter and there's just no issue.

Edit: (I cannot speak for the SL2 in that respect, sorry - misread your post)

Edited August 10, 2022 by insomnia

[jplomley]

8 minutes ago, insomnia said:

Must be your copy. I know what a sharp image looks like and I have absolutely zero issues with that on the SL2-S. I had followed the discussion here and I've tried 5-6 scenarios with mechanical and electronic shutter and there's just no issue.

Edit: (I cannot speak for the SL2 in that respect, sorry - misread your post)

Shutter shock/vibration is usually only observed on higher resolution sensors due, in part, to the small pixel pitch. I had no issues on my original SL, also 24 MP.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jplomley said:

When using mechanical shutter, I disable IBIS as that just made things worse. Almost like a constructive interference waveform, wherein the IBIS tries to compensate the vibration from the shutter shock, but ends up making it worse.

I tested my SL2, indoors, 2m subject distance, 5 shots for each mode, each shot refocused. The test used AP Summicron-SL 1:2/35mm, 1/250, all shots handheld.

I do not see any difference between having IBIS on or off. I see a very slight sharpness increase when shooting with electronic shutter instead of mechanical shutter. IMO, the difference is not significant.

Those were my tests, which confirm my experience. Here are 100% excerpts (IBIS on, mechanical vs electronic shutter):

 

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Edited August 10, 2022 by SrMi

[jplomley]

Hmmmm, many thanks for these evaluations. Seems like my SL2 needs a trip to Wetzlar for a check-up.  Are you evaluating at 100% on a 5K monitor (where everything looks sharp thanks to Apple's Retina sampling) or a 2.5K monitor?

[BernardC]

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1 hour ago, jplomley said:

I've simply lost confidence in their commitment to the product line, particularly in lieu of all the discounting we have seen of late and the abandonment of the TL/CL line.

Here's a list of companies that have Summer discounts, according to PhotoRumors: Nikon, Sony, Zeiss, Canon, Leica, Apple, Adobe, Fuji, Godox, Tamron, Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic. That's almost the entire industry, and it's not even an exhaustive list!

I don't doubt that you've lost confidence in Leica's commitment to the SL line, but the summer promotion isn't particularly significant.

[SrMi]

41 minutes ago, jplomley said:

Hmmmm, many thanks for these evaluations. Seems like my SL2 needs a trip to Wetzlar for a check-up.  Are you evaluating at 100% on a 5K monitor (where everything looks sharp thanks to Apple's Retina sampling) or a 2.5K monitor?

I am evaluating on Apple's Retina 6K monitor.

[Jeff S]

I've had no problems using my SL2 with the SL 24-90 or 90-280 using mechanical shutter.  Nor did I have any issues that I recall when I owned, but only briefly used, the SL 75.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

I have not noticed this as a problem either...just for the record. And I tend to notice these things. I think you are either unlucky with the body, or there is something in your workflow/style of making images that causes this. That is not a criticism! I have also found that with certain clients, we all have slightly different ways we move through the world, and sometimes this leads to different outcomes when we use things. As an extreme example, I have a friend who does not have full use of one of his hands, so he has to use different cameras in a different way. Hasselblads work for him, but not a camera like a Mamiya 7. Another example would be how certain users grip the SL2 in a way that rubs against the body and causes the finish to wear, whereas others have no problem at all. If it is more than just your SL2 that does this, potentially there is something else going on. That said, I wouldn't be so sure that 1/250th or 1/500th is fast enough to fully freeze the motion with the SL Summicrons and the SL2. Those are extremely sharp lenses and sensors. Have you had the same experience when testing the mechanical shutter on a self-timer on a very sturdy tripod? Because it could just be the minor unsharpness that occasionally comes when handholding, even at moderately fast speeds.

[jplomley]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:09 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I have not noticed this as a problem either...just for the record. And I tend to notice these things. I think you are either unlucky with the body, or there is something in your workflow/style of making images that causes this. That is not a criticism! I have also found that with certain clients, we all have slightly different ways we move through the world, and sometimes this leads to different outcomes when we use things. As an extreme example, I have a friend who does not have full use of one of his hands, so he has to use different cameras in a different way. Hasselblads work for him, but not a camera like a Mamiya 7. Another example would be how certain users grip the SL2 in a way that rubs against the body and causes the finish to wear, whereas others have no problem at all. If it is more than just your SL2 that does this, potentially there is something else going on. That said, I wouldn't be so sure that 1/250th or 1/500th is fast enough to fully freeze the motion with the SL Summicrons and the SL2. Those are extremely sharp lenses and sensors. Have you had the same experience when testing the mechanical shutter on a self-timer on a very sturdy tripod? Because it could just be the minor unsharpness that occasionally comes when handholding, even at moderately fast speeds.

Hi Stuart, I see the same image degradation when using mechanical shutter with the SL2 mounted on a tripod and using the shutter release cable. Test subjects are static. Arca Swiss ball-head and RRS dedicated L-plate, so a rock solid rig. Having shot 4x5 for over a decade, I'm all too aware of how critical stability is to the final image quality. I've a feeling this is a bad shutter assembly and will send the body to Wetzlar for an inspection. Note that I never has this issue with my Typ 601, and that grip was not as ergonomic as the SL2 for my hand size. On a side note, I am able to use both my M10-R and M10-M down to 1/30th sec without issue, despite the reports on this forum otherwise that this is difficult to routine achieve. Hands of a surgeon, but without the salary.

[Stuart Richardson]

Sounds like an issue with the camera then.  Hope it is resolved quickly for you!

[beewee]

From what I remember from other posts, IBIS + mechanical shutter vibrations seem most problematic around 1/125s.

Edited August 12, 2022 by beewee

[insomnia]

That may have been posts of himself 😉

[midnightsun]

I presume that you already have some M lenses.   I have a M10-R with a bunch of M lenses and picked to the SL2-S.  Though I have some great glass for my SL2-S, I usually have an M lens with adapted mounted.   The weight of the package seems acceptable.   For me the bigger SL2-S camera with a big SL APO lenses can be a bit of chore.     I do like the range finder, but for some M lenses I do better with the Visoflex focus.   I unapologetically like using M lenses with the SL2-S and at this point never use the Visoflex.   

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, jplomley said:

Hi Stuart, I see the same image degradation when using mechanical shutter with the SL2 mounted on a tripod and using the shutter release cable. Test subjects are static. Arca Swiss ball-head and RRS dedicated L-plate, so a rock solid rig. Having shot 4x5 for over a decade, I'm all too aware of how critical stability is to the final image quality. I've a feeling this is a bad shutter assembly and will send the body to Wetzlar for an inspection. Note that I never has this issue with my Typ 601, and that grip was not as ergonomic as the SL2 for my hand size. On a side note, I am able to use both my M10-R and M10-M down to 1/30th sec without issue, despite the reports on this forum otherwise that this is difficult to routine achieve. Hands of a surgeon, but without the salary.

With your luck, they’ll probably release the SL 21/24 primes just after you send your camera for service.

Jeff

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, beewee said:

From what I remember from other posts, IBIS + mechanical shutter vibrations seem most problematic around 1/125s.

You may be referring to this post:

However, I could not reproduce those issues with my SL2 either.

[hdmesa]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:48 PM, louca said:

Hi Everyone, first time posting here.

I'm aware there's a similar thread just a little below but I really wanted to ask as well for my needs. Any advice would be appreciated.

So I’ve been using M10P & Sony A7iii. Recently I’ve decided to just combine the two and make my kit somewhat minimal. I’ve sold A7iii and am selling M10P right now.  I’m not a fan of Sony and M10P is nice but I can’t shoot anything longer than 135mm with its native M lenses. If I’m going to invest in a Visoflex, I might as well just get an SL2 - I love the grip on that. Plus, I prefer zooms to primes when it comes to telephoto lenses. I mainly shoot urban landscapes and architecture/interior so AF is not important to me. Sometimes I scan 35mm & 120 negatives as well.

With A7iii, I’ve mostly used GM 100-400mm + x2 TC for my landscapes. I do long exposures sometimes during the day but mostly around sunset. So, I consider getting the Sigma 100-400mm and the equivalent TC if I get SL2(s). For anything under 100mm, I’m planning to use M mount lenses and travel with those only. Probably a 28mm, 50mm, and 90mm are the only lenses I can carry when I’m travelling.

(I also considered Fujifilm GFX 50Sii  but Fuji does not have a lens equivalent to those focal lengths and being medium format, the GFX lenses are just way too big. Also I wouldn’t carry a GFX model for travel and I’d hate the idea of an expensive and very capable camera sitting at home).

The reason I first looked into SL2 was because I wanted the higher resolution (anything above 24mp) but so many people have been saying the noise even around 800 is terrible because of that. When I do long exposures, I stay at the minimum ISO (50) but when I take indoor pictures, I can easily go up to 6400.

 

Questions:

1. I’ve downloaded some sample shots from DPreview and they were all shot when SL2 was first released. The noise does seem pretty bad starting ISO 2000 ish. Have the firmware updates over the years helped the noise performance at all?
2. How is the battery performance compared to m10P? With Sony A7iii, I never had to worry about it.
3. Should I just get SL2-s and forget about SL2 if I’m not printing larger than 60-70 inches in length?

 

I live in metro Vancouver (Canada) and the one store that has a SL2 on display won’t put a battery in it for fear of it being stolen….

 

TL:DR - I shoot urban landscapes often with telephotos with focal ranges from 100-800mm. I print as big as 60-70 inches in length. I shoot up to 6400 iso. Should I get an SL2 or SL2-s?

SL2-S and Sigma 150-600 Sports L mount.

Personally I would instead get the Canon R5 and RF 100-500. The Canon zoom is just incredible at all focal lengths and has a crazy close MFD. Just add an M to RF adapter with macro helicoid. The helicoid will let you dial in perfect infinity focus at the hard stop on your M lens. This allows for IQ very close to what I was able to get with the SL2-S and M lenses.

Or go back to Sony with an A1, 100-400 GM, and macro M to E adapter.

Both the Canon and Sony options get you the high res IQ and good enough M performance.

Keep in mind that with the SL2/S cameras, in order to get IBIS to work with M lenses, you MUST choose the closest matching Leica in-camera M lens profile. No profile = no IBIS. All fine as long as all you have are Leica brand M lenses or don’t mind the EXIF being wrong if you shoot CV, etc. Also the vignette correction is baked into the DNGs with no way to strip it out or remove even in C1. Not a deal killer, but it’s annoying since some CV lenses like the 50 APO have a nice vignette at f2 that gets mostly removed when using the Leica 50 APO profile.

[SrMi]

45 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

SL2-S and Sigma 150-600 Sports L mount.

Personally I would instead get the Canon R5 and RF 100-500. The Canon zoom is just incredible at all focal lengths and has a crazy close MFD. Just add an M to RF adapter with macro helicoid. The helicoid will let you dial in perfect infinity focus at the hard stop on your M lens. This allows for IQ very close to what I was able to get with the SL2-S and M lenses.

Or go back to Sony with an A1, 100-400 GM, and macro M to E adapter.

Both the Canon and Sony options get you the high res IQ and good enough M performance.

Keep in mind that with the SL2/S cameras, in order to get IBIS to work with M lenses, you MUST choose the closest matching Leica in-camera M lens profile. No profile = no IBIS. All fine as long as all you have are Leica brand M lenses or don’t mind the EXIF being wrong if you shoot CV, etc. Also the vignette correction is baked into the DNGs with no way to strip it out or remove even in C1. Not a deal killer, but it’s annoying since some CV lenses like the 50 APO have a nice vignette at f2 that gets mostly removed when using the Leica 50 APO profile.

Nikon Z 7 cameras are probably the most suited non-Leica cameras for M lenses (thinnest glass stack). However, the excellent Z 100-400 is a bit hard to find.

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[hdmesa]

28 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Nikon Z 7 cameras are probably the most suited non-Leica cameras for M lenses (thinnest glass stack). However, the excellent Z 100-400 is a bit hard to find.

I can't speak for Sony, but my R5 was nearly the equal of my SL2-S for M lenses. Having an incorrect length adapter has more detrimental impact on IQ than the sensor cover glass. Most adapters are too short, hence the recommendation for a macro/helicoid adapter, which can act as a shim on a lens-by-lens basis to get perfect infinity focus at the hard stop of the lens.

Yes, Z has the thinnest cover glass, so Z with a perfect length adapter or macro adapter is ideal, though I've never tried a Z to compare against the R5.