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Thinking of getting an SL2(s) - Need help


louca
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5 hours ago, louca said:

I was able to persuade the previously mentioned local store to stick a battery in the SL2 they have on display. They didn't let me take any photos with a memory card but I was able to play with it for about 10 minutes until the said battery died.

That's a store that doesn't deserve to be in business, and is in need of some real competition. What a bizarre service.

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As a printer, I would say that if large prints are of interest, then don't take the SL2S over the SL2. The resolution difference of 47mp over 24mp is big and important for large prints. Multishot is helpful, but it is not a replacement for a larger resolution sensor. The multi-shot process introduces small artifacts and softening over the standard resolution, so in the end it is not a "true" 100mp or 200mp. It can help in certain situations, but it is not a panacea. I would double this advice if you are interested in film scanning as well. You will see a substantial gain in resolution in your film scans by shooting the SL2 vs the SL2s.

As for noise, well that is something only you can answer, but I would encourage you to do as suggested above, and compare them at the same reproduction size. There is no point in zooming to 100% and looking at both. The SL2S will have lower noise at a pixel level. But the difference is not as stark if you downsize the SL2 to 24mp. The SL2S is apparently still ahead, but I think the advantages of the extra resolution are something you see in every photo, while the ISO only comes into play in extreme situations. The higher resolution also means you are less likely to see problems with moire, as LeicaR10 pointed out.

As to whether it can replace an M10...well that depends on what you value in an M10. If it is primarily the lenses and the interface, then the SL2 can probably do it. But if it is having a compact camera with a optical viewfinder, then it will not. The SL2 is bigger than both your M10P and Sony, but it does have really good ergonomics. In the end, I did sell my M10 once I got one, but I occasionally miss it for things like travel. But as a pro workhorse across various fields, the SL2 is way ahead of a camera like the M10.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As a printer, I would say that if large prints are of interest, then don't take the SL2S over the SL2

Yea - I don't think this is being emphasized enough. OP regularly prints images large, and it sounds like his work is reliant on detailed renderings. 

You can print 24 mp images large, but it doesn't work unless the style is...let's say leaning into technical imperfection, full of motion, abstraction, fluidity etc. If I wanted sharp details I'd consider this the wrong tool for the job. It sounds like this work is tripod based landscape that where fidelity matters. All of the good things about the SL2S - it's just not the swiss army knife OP seems to be looking for because it is lacking in resolution - AI upsizing or multi shot notwithstanding, these aren't tools it sounds like OP wants to use as a backbone for their practice and if they were neither is a substitute for a sensor with higher absolute resolution. The SL2 at base ISO properly exposed will stomp the SL2-S if you're printing at 40 inches, let alone 60. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, louca said:

By the way, there's absolutely no shift lens (or adapters) option in SL series? Then I guess I'll have to rely on photoshop... But it's not something in my priority list for now.

Laowa offers a 15 and a 20mm shift in L mount. You can also adapt any SLR shift lens using the right adapter. People have posted lots of examples of the EOS T/S lenses used on SL cameras here. The Sigma EOS-to-L adapter is the preferred solution for the SL2 and SL2-S. It isn't compatible with the original SL, but there's a Novoflex adapter that is.

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18 hours ago, louca said:

Do you know if it’s possible to use the Multishot for exposures longer than a minute?

The Panasonic S1R and S5 will let you do a multishoot exposure for longer than a minute.

For shift lenses, Laowa has a few in native L mount:

20mm:

https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-20mm-f-4-zero-d-shift/

15mm:

https://www.venuslens.net/product/15mm-f-4-5-zero-d-shift/

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17 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The Panasonic S1R and S5 will let you do a multishoot exposure for longer than a minute.

S1R's manual (p. 213) says that the multishot (high resolution) mode allows max one second, like SL2. Has that been changed in a firmware update?

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Posted (edited)

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It is not going to be very practical, as the multishot is going to be eight times longer than the exposure, so 1 minute exposure means eight minutes of taking time. Very few subjects will remain still that long (nor for that matter, the camera if you have any wind or vibration), so it minimizes the number of practical uses. I am not against making it available, but I can see why they don’t allow it. 

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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4 hours ago, SrMi said:

S1R's manual (p. 213) says that the multishot (high resolution) mode allows max one second, like SL2. Has that been changed in a firmware update?

Ooops, you're right. The S5 allows for up to 8 seconds in multishot, but apparently this feature is not available on the S1x variants.

"The key element the Lumix S5 brings to the High Resolution mode that none of the other Lumix models have is a shutter speed longer than one second. "

https://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-s-mirrorless-full-frame-cameras-learn/article/high-resolution-mode-with-s5.html

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Posted (edited)

I recall that the SL2 limitation of 1s is because the sensor itself has a 1s exposure limit for electronic shutter. This was the reason behind multi-shot being limited to 1s on both the S1R and SL2 since multi-shot uses electronic shutter. However, I noticed that the latest Spec Sheet for both the SL2 and SL2-S now mentions that the electronic shutter can go for 60s so maybe something has changed and Leica could expand the multi-shot shutter duration in the future?

One other thing to consider is that possibly the characteristics of the sensor may mean that Leica was not satisfied with exposures beyond 1s without dark frame compensation. So they chose to limit the maximum exposure duration for multi-shot to avoid needing dark frame correction.

Edited by beewee
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On 8/5/2022 at 4:48 PM, louca said:

Hi Everyone, first time posting here.

I'm aware there's a similar thread just a little below but I really wanted to ask as well for my needs. Any advice would be appreciated.

So I’ve been using M10P & Sony A7iii. Recently I’ve decided to just combine the two and make my kit somewhat minimal. I’ve sold A7iii and am selling M10P right now.  I’m not a fan of Sony and M10P is nice but I can’t shoot anything longer than 135mm with its native M lenses. If I’m going to invest in a Visoflex, I might as well just get an SL2 - I love the grip on that. Plus, I prefer zooms to primes when it comes to telephoto lenses. I mainly shoot urban landscapes and architecture/interior so AF is not important to me. Sometimes I scan 35mm & 120 negatives as well.

With A7iii, I’ve mostly used GM 100-400mm + x2 TC for my landscapes. I do long exposures sometimes during the day but mostly around sunset. So, I consider getting the Sigma 100-400mm and the equivalent TC if I get SL2(s). For anything under 100mm, I’m planning to use M mount lenses and travel with those only. Probably a 28mm, 50mm, and 90mm are the only lenses I can carry when I’m travelling.

(I also considered Fujifilm GFX 50Sii  but Fuji does not have a lens equivalent to those focal lengths and being medium format, the GFX lenses are just way too big. Also I wouldn’t carry a GFX model for travel and I’d hate the idea of an expensive and very capable camera sitting at home).

The reason I first looked into SL2 was because I wanted the higher resolution (anything above 24mp) but so many people have been saying the noise even around 800 is terrible because of that. When I do long exposures, I stay at the minimum ISO (50) but when I take indoor pictures, I can easily go up to 6400.

 

Questions:

  1. I’ve downloaded some sample shots from DPreview and they were all shot when SL2 was first released. The noise does seem pretty bad starting ISO 2000 ish. Have the firmware updates over the years helped the noise performance at all?
  2. How is the battery performance compared to m10P? With Sony A7iii, I never had to worry about it.
  3. Should I just get SL2-s and forget about SL2 if I’m not printing larger than 60-70 inches in length?

 

I live in metro Vancouver (Canada) and the one store that has a SL2 on display won’t put a battery in it for fear of it being stolen….

 

TL:DR - I shoot urban landscapes often with telephotos with focal ranges from 100-800mm. I print as big as 60-70 inches in length. I shoot up to 6400 iso. Should I get an SL2 or SL2-s?

IMHO there is no equal to the Sony 100-400GM in the L mount. Once you use it you get spoilt. I tried the Sigma L mount 100-400 on the SL2 - decent, but no comparison to the GM. Isn't Sony better for you given your need for 100-800mm and Sony's large offering of tele zooms?

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Just now, ravinj said:

Read the post and tone down the sarcasm meter and you may understand it.

It was not sarcasm, but a mistake (hence post deleted, again).

Only after a second reading did I understand that you meant that there is no L-mount lens equal to Sony 100-400 GM. 

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If you go the SL2 route, just be cautious of shutter shock when using the mechanical shutter. Mine is terrible, and so am forced to use electronic shutter to achieve sharp images. Oddly, I see no shutter shock issues on my M10-R or M10-M, which are of comparable resolution. Seems Leica did a better job of shutter dampening on the M architecture then it did on the SL2.

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19 minutes ago, jplomley said:

If you go the SL2 route, just be cautious of shutter shock when using the mechanical shutter. Mine is terrible, and so am forced to use electronic shutter to achieve sharp images. Oddly, I see no shutter shock issues on my M10-R or M10-M, which are of comparable resolution. Seems Leica did a better job of shutter dampening on the M architecture then it did on the SL2.

At what shutter speeds and focal lengths do you experience shutter shock with SL2?

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I see it at 1/250th and 1/500th shutter speeds which I default to for street when using either the 35 or 75 APO SL lenses. Never had the problem on my original SL, so was very disappointed in this attribute of the SL2. As a result, I only now use the SL2 for landscapes on a tripod and with electronic shutter.  Shame, because the 35/75 APO SL pair is a fantastic combo for reportage. The M's are now the workhorses for everything, and I have recently even pressed them for landscapes. I will likely be exiting the SL system very shortly, due in part to this, and the fact the 21/24 are so significantly delayed I don't think they will ever materialize. I do not see much effort by Leica to expand their contribution to the L-alliance, and this is very disappointing. Coupled with all the discounts they are throwing around, seems the system is in jeopardy, and for good reason. It was a nice try, but they simply lost too much momentum by their inability to get the lenses out the door in a timely fashion. 

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34 minutes ago, jplomley said:

I see it at 1/250th and 1/500th shutter speeds which I default to for street when using either the 35 or 75 APO SL lenses. Never had the problem on my original SL, so was very disappointed in this attribute of the SL2.

I wonder if that's an unintended consequence of IBIS, since the sensor isn't fixed to the shutter.

35 minutes ago, jplomley said:

I do not see much effort by Leica to expand their contribution to the L-alliance, and this is very disappointing. Coupled with all the discounts they are throwing around, seems the system is in jeopardy, and for good reason. It was a nice try, but they simply lost too much momentum by their inability to get the lenses out the door in a timely fashion. 

Last year they released more new bodies and lenses than most major players (especially Sony Nikon and Canon!), and they were heroes. This year they are "zeroes." The good news is that they've now learned not to announce stuff they can't produce. The aforementioned "big 3" have had huge problems with that lately: lots of announcements, nothing new on dealer shelves.

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1 hour ago, jplomley said:

I see it at 1/250th and 1/500th shutter speeds which I default to for street when using either the 35 or 75 APO SL lenses. Never had the problem on my original SL, so was very disappointed in this attribute of the SL2. As a result, I only now use the SL2 for landscapes on a tripod and with electronic shutter.  Shame, because the 35/75 APO SL pair is a fantastic combo for reportage. The M's are now the workhorses for everything, and I have recently even pressed them for landscapes. I will likely be exiting the SL system very shortly, due in part to this, and the fact the 21/24 are so significantly delayed I don't think they will ever materialize. I do not see much effort by Leica to expand their contribution to the L-alliance, and this is very disappointing. Coupled with all the discounts they are throwing around, seems the system is in jeopardy, and for good reason. It was a nice try, but they simply lost too much momentum by their inability to get the lenses out the door in a timely fashion. 

That is strange, as shutter shock is typically observed at lower shutter speeds and longer focal lengths. Some cameras switch automatically from EFCS to mechanical shutter around 1/250. Did you have IBIS on or off?

I will run some tests, as I do not remember seeing any shutter shock at those focal lengths.

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