L-system - Why poor sales?

[hamey]

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Anybody that doubt's  the capabilities of the APS-C should look at this, Fuji promo on the XH-2s.

Perhaps Leica can try this with the SL3, not give it to a select few to walk around the streets on a fine day.

 

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[PeterGA]

1 hour ago, hamey said:

Anybody that doubt's  the capabilities of the APS-C should look at this, Fuji promo on the XH-2s.

Perhaps Leica can try this with the SL3, not give it to a select few to walk around the streets on a fine day.

Leica 'launch' events are boring compared to other manufacturers BUT to Leica's credit though- they offer post sales engagement opportunity for photographers who actually use their cameras to make photographs as well as numerous publications and gallery events - which I don't see any other manufacturer matching.

That said I shoot with both Fuji and Leica systems - each has their specific advantages for me - and none of my camera/lens choice has ever been influenced by youtoobers or marketing paraphernalia - but I do enjoy some aspects of a greater engagement with users that Leica offer.

 

[frame-it]

39 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

they offer post sales engagement opportunity for photographers who actually use their cameras to make photographs as well as numerous publications and gallery events

you mean in Your Country right?

[Stuart Richardson]

While XH2S is clearly a capable camera, I don't see anything about it that would replace an SL2 for me. A video like that does not tell you much about the characteristics of the file or the lenses (other than that there is a lot of DOF in most of the pictures other than the long telephoto shots). Unfortunately I do not understand the speech in the video, but from watching it seems the biggest strength is high speed AF and frame rate. That is surely important for some photographers, but it is almost wholly irrelevant for my work at least. I cannot remember the last time I used continuous on a camera. What a video like that cannot show you is what prints look like.

It looks like it is a 26mp APS-C camera. I am sure that the prints look good up to about 40x60 or perhaps 60x90, depending on ISO. I printed an exhibition for the press photography awards show here a few years ago, and many of the photographers were using Fuji APS-C cameras. Let's just say that the APS-C models stuck out compared to the full frame cameras. Much higher grain, lower dynamic range and overall lower file flexibility. Since these images were primarily taken for journalistic purposes, it was not a main concern of the photographers. The compact size, easier handling and wide depth of field worked in their favor. But when it comes to overall image quality, the higher resolution and larger sensored full frame cameras were quite a ways ahead. In most scenarios APS-C is enough to produce excellent photos, but it is hard to overcome physics...assuming a similar generation of sensor, full frame will give better image quality because it has 2.5 times the surface area. The gap between APS-C and 35mm is bigger than between 35mm and the smaller medium format cameras like the GFX and S line. Those are about twice the size of 35mm. This is the same game going upwards. It is hard for an SL2 to challenge a GFX in image quality in large prints or for dynamic range. The trick in all this is to pick the format that best suits what you want to do. For example, if you do not need large prints but you want a convenient system for long lenses, APS-C can be a great choice as the crop factor will extend your length a lot while still giving you more depth of field than in a larger camera. Whereas if you only do huge prints, a camera like a GFX 100 is going to be a strong contender. For me, I found that I prefer the handling of the SL2 and I find that 47mp with crystal clear lenses is enough for me to print at 100x150cm with great results...bigger than that is not very important for me. It also worked better into my existing set of lenses than a GFX would. So the L mount for me...everyone needs to find their niche.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, Martin B said:

At the time, the S system was a good digital medium format system where only Hasselblad/Phase 1 competed in. The S-system became fairly redundant with Fuji's introduction of their medium format MLC like the 50R. The Fuji had higher performance for much less money and allows also to adapt lenses from other brands similar to Leica's S. That's IMO why the S system is now a niche at best.

The S system fills a small niche in the market. It has a different philosophy than the other medium format SLRs: fast, compact, weather-proof, portable, huge autonomy, etc. In other words, it's more of a location camera than a studio camera.

It's easy to compare it to the Fuji and Hasselblad mirrorless systems, but again it's a different market. Those two systems are great improvements over the Sony a7r cameras for landscape, but they have little to offer to the corporate/lifestyle/advertising/fashion photographer who might use the S system.

Instead of looking at the negatives, let's look at the positives of the S system. First and foremost is the lens system: you get a consistent look at every aperture of every lens, and almost every lens is unusually fast for the format. That's not critical for landscape (where you'll tweak a single image until you are satisfied), but it's very important if you are expected to deliver a series of images for a magazine or advertising campaign. The bodies are rock-solid and weather-proof. I've shot in crazy rain storms, and all I needed to do afterward was to wipe the camera down. The batteries are good for around 2,000 shots. The viewfinder is one of the best ever, so you can focus by eye comfortably. The colour response is amazing, especially with skin tones.

I understand why many people don't "get" the S system. It's expensive, and made for photographers who have unique requirements.

Ironically, I think that the biggest competitor for the S is the SL2, when paired with APO-Summicron L lenses: similar resolution and colour response, and a line of incredibly consistent lenses that are good at every aperture and distance.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Ironically, I think that the biggest competitor for the S is the SL2, when paired with APO-Summicron L lenses: similar resolution and colour response, and a line of incredibly consistent lenses that are good at every aperture and distance.

And of course one can adapt S lenses to the SL bodies, flexibility for those already with an S kit.

While you described the competitive distinctions well, I think the price point of the S system, with an open playing field at the start, took a hit relatively soon after introduction when Pentax came in near $10k while the S was north of $20k.  Then Hasselblad’s X1D and Fuji’s MF entries similarly were priced at half or more below Leica.  Different markets, perhaps, but Leica reduced prices somewhat and surely shaved margins, only to raise prices again.  Anticipated new S lenses (Farkas posted here about expected tele, T/S) never materialized.  Then the AF motor issues arose and used prices sunk.  Unfortunate series of events.  Sometimes timing is critical; things might have been different if the S system had more time to gain traction.

Jeff

[PeterGA]

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15 hours ago, frame-it said:

you mean in Your Country right?

Correct me if I am wrong but Leica provide access to various publications on a global basis as well as a dedicated web site for people to show case their work...I also think that the dedicated Leica shops as well as the new initiative of  providing rebuilt and checked lenses and bodies with warranty - are pretty easy examples of excellent customer and user engagement - it is all relative I guess - but all things considered they 'put in' a fair amount of infrastructure to maintain their brand and customer loyalty and margins.

I don't spend much time in stores but it was interesting to me sitting down and having a coffee in the Melbourne store- ( I live in Sydney)  and watching the customers who came in and how the sales staff handled the process - in an hour I watched 3 different people - all well dressed professional types walk in look at a camera ask a  few questions handle teh product presented and walk out with a Q2 , an M110M and and an SL2 with a couple of lenses. Customers could sign up for photographic experience opportunities including lessons walk arounds and other 'events'....

It is no accident the popularity of Leica products or margin - there are a lot of customers who are time poor - Leica makes it easy for them to spend.

I don't participate in any of this stuff - but plenty of people do. I walked out with an M11 after having tested one for a few days (courtesy of the store) and a refurbished as new M9M and Warranty -which I can sell for more than I paid.

I will never go in to a typical camera shop and deal with sales people who are clueless and couldn't care less about what they sell and wont be there in 6 weeks time anyway - different market for different consumers with different needs. 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by PeterGA

[AZN]

6 hours ago, PeterGA said:

having a coffee in the Melbourne store- ( I live in Sydney)

The Melbourne store is great.  Really helpful and professional staff, with most items in stock.

The Sydney store is the complete opposite. Doubt they will ever see any of my money again.  

Another reason perhaps why the L System isn't selling so well.  Doofus sales-staff and "Er, [tap-tap-tap-tap on the computer and slurp-slurp-slurp on the oh-so-yummy-coffee], um, er… we'll have to order that in… You'll need to leave a 10% deposit and we don't [slurp] know when it will be in" 😡

[Martin B]

22 hours ago, BernardC said:

The S system fills a small niche in the market. It has a different philosophy than the other medium format SLRs: fast, compact, weather-proof, portable, huge autonomy, etc. In other words, it's more of a location camera than a studio camera.

It's easy to compare it to the Fuji and Hasselblad mirrorless systems, but again it's a different market. Those two systems are great improvements over the Sony a7r cameras for landscape, but they have little to offer to the corporate/lifestyle/advertising/fashion photographer who might use the S system.

Instead of looking at the negatives, let's look at the positives of the S system. First and foremost is the lens system: you get a consistent look at every aperture of every lens, and almost every lens is unusually fast for the format. That's not critical for landscape (where you'll tweak a single image until you are satisfied), but it's very important if you are expected to deliver a series of images for a magazine or advertising campaign. The bodies are rock-solid and weather-proof. I've shot in crazy rain storms, and all I needed to do afterward was to wipe the camera down. The batteries are good for around 2,000 shots. The viewfinder is one of the best ever, so you can focus by eye comfortably. The colour response is amazing, especially with skin tones.

I understand why many people don't "get" the S system. It's expensive, and made for photographers who have unique requirements.

Ironically, I think that the biggest competitor for the S is the SL2, when paired with APO-Summicron L lenses: similar resolution and colour response, and a line of incredibly consistent lenses that are good at every aperture and distance.

Not sure to claim that the S system fills a different market. I would agree though that it comes down to personal preference which digital medium format fits best. For some it might be camera built as you mentioned, for others more modern sensor technology and price. What I personally see posted with digital medium format photos - with all kind of subjects ranging from portraits to landscapes and art - is predominantly taken with Fuji cameras. 

I agree that the SL2 might be very attractive for former S camera users. I think it fits this market better with its larger L lens system than the one using Leica M. 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Martin B said:

Not sure to claim that the S system fills a different market.

I guess it really depends on how you define a market. Is it just the medium-format market, which ranges from a $40 Holga to $100,000 PhaseOne systems? To me the key differences between the S3's market and the GFX's market are price, and the fact that the Fuji sells overwhelmingly to enthusiasts while the Leica sells mostly to professionals. High price, low volume, vs. low price, high volume (these things are relative of course).

I won't debate the merits of either company's choices. There are lots of discussions in the S forum on whether Leica should enter Fuji's market. One consensus is that this would require a different (cheaper/smaller) camera and new lenses, essentially a new product line.

[PeterGA]

4 hours ago, AZN said:

The Melbourne store is great.  Really helpful and professional staff, with most items in stock.

The Sydney store is the complete opposite. Doubt they will ever see any of my money again.  

Another reason perhaps why the L System isn't selling so well.  Doofus sales-staff and "Er, [tap-tap-tap-tap on the computer and slurp-slurp-slurp on the oh-so-yummy-coffee], um, er… we'll have to order that in… You'll need to leave a 10% deposit and we don't [slurp] know when it will be in" 😡

That is a bad experience for sure....

[jankap]

On 6/20/2022 at 1:26 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

Let's just say that the APS-C models stuck out compared to the full frame cameras. Much higher grain, lower dynamic range and overall lower file flexibility. 

A full frame sensor consists of 2 stitched APS-C areas. One finds a factor of 1.4 in the properties. Compare it with a cropped FF-sensor.

[Stuart Richardson]

25 minutes ago, jankap said:

A full frame sensor consists of 2 stitched APS-C areas. One finds a factor of 1.4 in the properties. Compare it with a cropped FF-sensor.

I was just comparing area, but APS-C is not an exact standard. Full frame (24x36mm) has an area of 864sqmm, APS-C Canon is 22.5x15mm which is 337.5sqmm, and the Sony ones are more like 24x16mm which is 384sqmm. So full frame has 2.56 times the sensor area as APS-C from Canon, and 2.25 times the area of APS-C from a 22.5x15mm sensor (the Fuji ones are slightly smaller than that). By comparison, the GFX has a 43.9x32.9mm sensor, which is "only" 1.67 times as large as full frame. Just saying that APS-C to 35mm is a bigger jump in quality than 35mm to the GFX or Leica S sensor sizes.

[frame-it]

37 minutes ago, jankap said:

A full frame sensor consists of 2 stitched APS-C areas.

i thought its [FF] cut as a single piece not stitched together, hence the higher cost?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by frame-it

[beewee]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

i thought its [FF] cut as a single piece not stitched together, hence the higher cost?

 

 

 

 

 

It’s more a limitation of silicon yields, foundry capabilities, and costs during the period in which CCDs were popular and not so much to do with any inherent CCD limitation. 

[jankap]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

i thought its [FF] cut as a single piece not stitched together, hence the higher cost?

See this thread: "Strange effect during long time exposure"

The base, the silicon is one piece, of course. But they print 2 masks on it. Of course these can be read in parallel, but there are 2 reading amplifiers then. These 2 must be matched to give the same amplification. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by jankap

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, jankap said:

A full frame sensor consists of 2 stitched APS-C areas

and here I assumed that the APS-C sensor was just a folded full frame sensor... 🤪
with one came first?

 

What do I know!

[Alistairm]

6 hours ago, PeterGA said:

That is a bad experience for sure....

Yes indeed. To add some balance, I’ve had nothing but good experiences with that store. @AZN As you’re a local I’d definitely give them another chance. Maybe you just caught them on a bad day, but my experiences have been excellent… they’re knowledgeable, pleasant and very interested in photography and printed photos, not just Leica gear. 

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[MarcusGVA]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:04 PM, Simone_DF said:

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Who cares, really? Sure, this is a lifestyle item, and in the eyes of many it's overpriced. But walk into a Zegna store and you will probably say the same about all their items, be they $700 sneakers or whatever. Do you pay a premium for the name? Yes. But you also pay for high quality products. Few will buy this strap solely to show off, as nowhere does it shout 'Zegna', but other who can easily afford it and want a leather strap may well purchase this because it's made of high qulaitzy leather and the delicate weaving is beyond most other 'artisan' leather straps. Nothing wrong with good, high quality accessories for your expensive Leica. Now ... Leica watches and glasses is another matter of course 🙂

[Simone_DF]

24 minutes ago, MarcusGVA said:

the delicate weaving is beyond most other 'artisan' leather straps.

Did you really say "delicate weaving"?

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