I’ve now had 3 x sl2 bodies fail.

[Gavin Cato]

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6 hours ago, lx1713 said:

Perhaps Gavin, you may be moving and stopping very quickly (violently?) And that may affect the unit in some way. I'm pretty gentle with my movements and I don't use a two camera setup where I may just let go of one camera to switch to a different camera.

Yes quite possibly - I move pretty fast at a wedding, and it's typically for a 8-12hr stint.

I can tell you it doesn't affect previous generations of Canon/Sony/Fuji but that doesn't mean that isn't causing it with the Leica.

 

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[pgh]

You may have answered it already, but (and I know you're convinced this isn't the problem) - have you actually switched SD cards and put the SL's through paces with Sandisks or something else? I used to have Sony and got Sony cards, but those cards have been finicky for me in basically every other camera I've put them in (including my SL2, M10 and an Olympus Pen F). I'm about to toss it, bad vibes. Just shot a job today w my SL2 on a Sony card and I got a weird shutter sound (no bricking, thankfully) and was getting hiccups on import. I got it all to work but that card is going in the naughty been and the rest are too. 

To add to that, Leica is the only company I've ever had issues with. My M8 had problems out of box. My M10 had to go back to Germany upon receiving. And then once more because they didn't fix everything. And my SL2 has strangely crappy and imprecise painting on the hotshoe (an aesthetic annoyance). 

I keep shooting Leica only because I'm an idiot who loves the tactile nature of them and doesn't do the same volume of jobs I used to - but the QC has, in my experience, been pretty poor. But when they work...ah. So nice. Until you throw it out the window. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by pgh

[Gavin Cato]

no I haven't - I've had years of zero probs with the sony yellow tough sd cards. 

But honestly though, even if it was the SD cards - that is reason enough to ditch the cameras. If a memory card can cause a permanent hardware failure on a camera, then I don't want that camera.

A card failing to format, having corrupted file, locking camera up - ok, fine - I can deal with that. But a permanent hardware failure - that's another step.

The frustrating thing here is Leica still haven't/won't tell me what happened with the first  2 bodies repaired.

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Gavin Cato

[pgh]

Well, I'm not sure I'd blame the camera entirely if it is the card - as I've said those cards have caused me issues on every other digital camera I've stuck them in. 

[Gavin Cato]

Just now, pgh said:

Well, I'm not sure I'd blame the camera entirely if it is the card - as I've said those cards have caused me issues on every other digital camera I've stuck them in. 

The camera should not suffer a permanent hardware failure if it doesn't like the memory card. That's insane. 

Please note - not aiming at you! I'm still annoyed at the whole situation. I'm surprised you have had issues with the sony tough sd cards - they have a very good rep and I know many other wedding shooters on them. Personally I've used them for years on sony a9's, and these leicas (until now) and on my pentax 645z, on Fuji xt4/x100 and Leica q2 and on these canon r5's with zero problems.

 

[pgh]

4 minutes ago, Gavin Cato said:

The camera should not suffer a permanent hardware failure if it doesn't like the memory card. That's insane. 

Please note - not aiming at you! I'm still annoyed at the whole situation. I'm surprised you have had issues with the sony tough sd cards - they have a very good rep and I know many other wedding shooters on them. Personally I've used them for years on sony a9's, and these leicas (until now) and on my pentax 645z, on Fuji xt4/x100 and Leica q2 and on these canon r5's with zero problems.

 

I know you're not aiming at me - I amended my above statement to commiserate on Leica's QC issues. I find it preposterous they don't give you an explanation - I'd probably be badgering HQ in some way if I were in your shoes...which, hopefully I am not but wouldn't be surprised. 

[beewee]

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3 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

The camera should not suffer a permanent hardware failure if it doesn't like the memory card. That's insane. 

Please note - not aiming at you! I'm still annoyed at the whole situation. I'm surprised you have had issues with the sony tough sd cards - they have a very good rep and I know many other wedding shooters on them. Personally I've used them for years on sony a9's, and these leicas (until now) and on my pentax 645z, on Fuji xt4/x100 and Leica q2 and on these canon r5's with zero problems.

 

Maybe I’m being pedantic but it’s possible your SD card (or whatever usage specific work flow) bricked your camera and put it in some bad state but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a hardware failure. In the world of embedded programming, hardware and software are very intertwined and what may seem like hardware issues are often still software. I point this out mainly because its easy to blame the hardware but 90% of the time, this type of behaviour is actually caused by software.

Edited May 6, 2022 by beewee

[lx1713]

I have 2 Sony (Yellow) and 10 SanDisk Extreme Pros. I always use the camera to format the cards. So far it's been trouble-free since 2017 when I got the first SL.

A software issue would be common to all and generally it should surface in more cases relatively quickly. Unless there's something Gavin is doing rather uniquely that the software objects.

A hardware issue would also be common to more people and would surface sooner or later. Gavin's case has me watching for problems as my workload is increasing quite a bit but it isn't  to the level Gavin will be experiencing. I'm semi retired. I'm using the SL, SL2-S and the SL2. About 2-3K shots per week at times with a fair amount of lull between busy times.

A hardware/software issue would be kind of tough to diagnose because of inconsistency. Which is the start of the problem? What's the trigger?

And unfortunately, some problems only crop up in the most frantic conditions so taking a pause and trying to nail the issue is usually impossible. I do know it took Canon nearly 20 years to solve some problems that I wasn't pleased with.

At the end of the day, it could well be power supplying the camera or too many demands on the chip. Only Leica will be able to see any trends. Not enough use cases, no consistent problem to solve. Bricking the camera is a sure sign they will pay attention to it if they want to earn the pro's money in Leica's future. A reputation is earned thru stress testing the system to the limits. The SL is going where Leica is more comfortable even if they do not have the actual experience. The M, Leica Cine lenses, etc are top performers even if the SL isn't a beast at pushing frames on a daily basis but the SL system is excellent for many people. And I do push lots of frames thru weekly.

Retaining the system will allow Gavin to spot recurrences at a more leisure pace and that helps the rest of us.

[LBJ2]

11 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

no I haven't - I've had years of zero probs with the sony yellow tough sd cards. 

But honestly though, even if it was the SD cards - that is reason enough to ditch the cameras. If a memory card can cause a permanent hardware failure on a camera, then I don't want that camera.

A card failing to format, having corrupted file, locking camera up - ok, fine - I can deal with that. But a permanent hardware failure - that's another step.

The frustrating thing here is Leica still haven't/won't tell me what happened with the first  2 bodies repaired.

 

"Leica still haven't/won't tell me what happened with the first  2 bodies repaired."

Whoever you are waiting to get back to you apparently isn't. 

In my case, and in my region when I contact Leica service and repair to troubleshoot a problem and/or send in for repair if needed, the service reps are very responsive to my emails and answer all my questions to include getting back to me once they speak to a technician if needed. I've not had to escalate thanks to very responsive email communications so far.

If I had three Leica cameras all fail in a row like you experienced with the same problem, I'd be all over direct communications to include escalation if needed. 

If it were me...and someone on this thread already offered two high level contacts for you to reach out to at Leica HQ, I would send copies of your last two repair invoices and let them know you are sending in a third camera for the exact same repair and need to speak to someone to figure out what the root-cause might be, specifically since you use their cameras for your business. I'd also ask for a loaner as well.

Not sure how much help any of us on this thread can provide unless of course you just want to talk about your understandably painful/frustrating situation. 

[Gavin Cato]

It’s because I have already done most of the steps. They did give me a loan  Camera.

 

if I was still intending to use them for business yes I would be chasing it up more aggressively. But with the simple fact that the repairs from Australia will always take somewhere around 3 to 4 months I’ve just made my decision that it’s not viable for me unfortunately. At this stage in the thread I’m just replying to the odd question but I’m already decided that I’m using Canon full time for weddings now. Please excuse the punctuation dictating this on the road. 
 

I’m going to keep a very small kit for personal use and sell the rest.

[pgh]

19 hours ago, lx1713 said:

Bricking the camera is a sure sign they will pay attention to it if they want to earn the pro's money in Leica's future. A reputation is earned thru stress testing the system to the limits.

Respectfully, I do not think they are interested in pro's money in any appreciable way. A pro photographer has nothing on am amateur enthusiast with a white-collar profession.

And Leica reputation was earned through such testing, decades ago. Now it is primarily buffeted by branding strategies. And yes, sexy design, and nice optics. 

Don't get me wrong - I still have unreasonable affection for my cameras, but I don't think we should overestimate how much Leica cares about the person using them for work. Most digital Leicas sold will probably get lucky to ever hit even 10 or 20k shutter actuations in their lifetime - which some professionals will hit in a months, or a year or two depending on their line of work. This is not  high volume to sample the sort of stress testing that Canons and Nikons are subjected to in the real world all of the time. 

[hansvons]

6 hours ago, pgh said:

Respectfully, I do not think they are interested in pro's money in any appreciable way. A pro photographer has nothing on am amateur enthusiast with a white-collar profession.

And Leica reputation was earned through such testing, decades ago. Now it is primarily buffeted by branding strategies. And yes, sexy design, and nice optics. 

Like any other brand in that industry, Leica needs the pros to pull the trailer with the money (enthusiasts). While Leica was always about product design and craftsmanship, it's been about the images as well. Leica can't sell cameras without the pros showcasing their work in the long run. 

Artistic photojournalism is traditionally associated with Leica but not the bread-and-butter work, and, in today's world of AF monsters from Japan, even less so. There are plenty of other fields where professional Leica-using journalist and fine artists use their Leica cameras and lenses for remarkable work. Even a few wedding photographers shoot on M cameras professionally and use Leica as their USP.  But they are a rare exception for a reason.

All of that, of course, doesn't render the OPs issue moot. There should be a program for professionals that includes loaners on short notice. I'd happily pay for that an extra yearly fee.

[BernardC]

Am I the only one to think that the Australian importer is 100% at-fault here? They provided terrible support and lazy turnaround.

All cameras break, no matter what their marketing department tells you. What makes a camera professional is support. Image quality doesn't even factor-in for most jobs.

Canon famously had a line of flashes that wouldn't last a wedding, but they supported the heck out of them until the product was redesigned. A friend was a studio manager in the early days of digital and spent his times shipping D1's back and forth to Nikon. That camera was terrible, but Nikon made sure his shooters always had enough bodies to get their work done.

The counter-example is Agfa film in Canada (back in the film days, of course). It was certainly good enough, especially if you shot portraits, but it wasn't "pro" because you couldn't be sure from one day to the next if it was available. No stills photographer could depend on them for their living. Kodak wasn't as good, in my opinion, but there were half a dozen stores with their professional film always in-stock and refrigerated, even in my mid-size city.

What I've learned here is that Leica's Australian distributor has no stock, they don't follow-up on issues, they take weeks to ship stuff. I know people will extrapolate that situation to the whole planet, and cite 50-year-old cameras as proof, but it seems to me like a fixable issue that is happening right now.

[LBJ2]

13 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

It’s because I have already done most of the steps. They did give me a loan  Camera.

 

if I was still intending to use them for business yes I would be chasing it up more aggressively. But with the simple fact that the repairs from Australia will always take somewhere around 3 to 4 months I’ve just made my decision that it’s not viable for me unfortunately. At this stage in the thread I’m just replying to the odd question but I’m already decided that I’m using Canon full time for weddings now. Please excuse the punctuation dictating this on the road. 
 

I’m going to keep a very small kit for personal use and sell the rest.

I didn't realize you were provided with a loaner. I must have missed that, if you posted earlier in this thread. That is good to hear and IMO the right thing for Leica to do particularly when facing 3-4 month wait times, repeatedly. I certainly understand your business decision to go with another camera system with a reliable in-country service/repair program. 

43 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Like any other brand in that industry, Leica needs the pros to pull the trailer with the money (enthusiasts). While Leica was always about product design and craftsmanship, it's been about the images as well. Leica can't sell cameras without the pros showcasing their work in the long run. 

Artistic photojournalism is traditionally associated with Leica but not the bread-and-butter work, and, in today's world of AF monsters from Japan, even less so. There are plenty of other fields where professional Leica-using journalist and fine artists use their Leica cameras and lenses for remarkable work. Even a few wedding photographers shoot on M cameras professionally and use Leica as their USP.  But they are a rare exception for a reason.

All of that, of course, doesn't render the OPs issue moot. There should be a program for professionals that includes loaners on short notice. I'd happily pay for that an extra yearly fee.

"There should be a program for professionals that includes loaners on short notice. I'd happily pay for that an extra yearly fee."

A head-scratcher for sure. 

[hansvons]

1 minute ago, LBJ2 said:

A head-scratcher for sure. 

Before switching to Leica, I had a friendly, professional relationship with Canon. Loaners were a no-brainer for them, strengthening the relationship etc. The same applies to the professional cine camera market. When a camera bricks for no apparent reason, loaners are an obviousness.

[frame-it]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:25 AM, lx1713 said:

you may be moving and stopping very quickly (violently?) And that may affect the unit in some way.

cant figure out if this is a joke or a serious comment..

[Gavin Cato]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

Before switching to Leica, I had a friendly, professional relationship with Canon. Loaners were a no-brainer for them, strengthening the relationship etc. The same applies to the professional cine camera market. When a camera bricks for no apparent reason, loaners are an obviousness.

actually the leica Australia (Sydney) said no to a loaner when the first SL2 died. Which is why I then bought 2 x SL2-s bodies.

Then when the second SL2 died, they found me a loaner. Much appreciated, but what was not appreciated was them pointing out that the camera had signs of use when I returned it a couple of months later. You gave a brand new SL2 as a loaner to a guy who typically does anywhere from 10-20 weddings a month, and then acted surprised when it had marks on it. 

He said the camera is expected to be returned in the same condition it was lent out. It was brand new. The only way I could have done that was by not using it. Not sure if that would count as a loan body then!

Anyway, I've been procastinating on selling a bunch of gear but I'll do it this week. The canon gear has been working beautifully, and I'll be with CPS and will have meaningful support with turnaround times which is what really counts. I'm going to keep a SL2, with the 35/2 & 50/1.4 for personal use.

 

[lx1713]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:08 AM, pgh said:

Respectfully, I do not think they are interested in pro's money in any appreciable way. A pro photographer has nothing on am amateur enthusiast with a white-collar profession.

And Leica reputation was earned through such testing, decades ago. Now it is primarily buffeted by branding strategies. And yes, sexy design, and nice optics. 

Don't get me wrong - I still have unreasonable affection for my cameras, but I don't think we should overestimate how much Leica cares about the person using them for work. Most digital Leicas sold will probably get lucky to ever hit even 10 or 20k shutter actuations in their lifetime - which some professionals will hit in a months, or a year or two depending on their line of work. This is not  high volume to sample the sort of stress testing that Canons and Nikons are subjected to in the real world all of the time. 

☺️ It's a company with a very long history of surviving. Its reputation varies with who the user is. And its different products are stress tested according to their use base. I don't think we are in disagreement. 

Yes, there isn't enough volume to stress test to the same level of Canon and Nikons but we can always feed back. As I had worked alongside professionals of all stripes all types of problems do occur. Quite a bit is user created issues. For example I will probably never see a Leica user drop a 600mm lens onto the field to switch cameras to grab a shot with a 70-200. A technician's face can be telling when the cameraman brings in a lens or camera for the umpteenth time and complains. I'm not saying that Gavin is responsible but the problems that an M rangefinder goes thru as a film camera can be different from a digital machine. Leica has a different reputation to build here.

I used to tell my Nikon friends the reason why Canon has such a great service department is because their cameras and lens are so bad that they had to keep repairing until they got the design right. It's my joke to keep sane.

"Branding strategies" is something I feel that is overrated in the long run. On a short cycle, yeah, maybe I get conned into the hype but I will move on. So why did I get a Leica. M8 was kind of a ridiculous entry for me but it survived 150K shots in 3 years. The SL was and is an amazing first entry and worthy line to take a risk but my Canon was backup. Those Canons are now gone.

All that doesn't mean Gavin is wrong or professionals are not on Leica's radar. Leica needs to do more but they have limits. They didn't have the traction they need to sustain a pro network. All this you can say about Sony and they are bigger. Sony's pro support has my Nikon friends saying that its just lip service 😅  So it can depend on where you are located.

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[lx1713]

16 hours ago, frame-it said:

cant figure out if this is a joke or a serious comment..

Quite, quite serious 🙂

Even a tank's 120mm cannon's gyrostabiliser needs regular maintenance because of how they treat their tanks. It's just a bigger problem. The users think its a tank so it can handle anything.

[lx1713]

Sometimes things that grieves us in the system can be very trivial to others but it can become a make or break situation.

My personal bugbears with the SL, SL2 & SL2-S:

1. Unlike Nikons my SLs need regular cleaning for the hotshoe contacts so that my wireless trigger works flawlessly rather than hiccuping its way thru a shoot.

2. Theres no pc terminal for the rare occasions when you need to physically trigger the studio flashes (the original SL had, I assumed the SL2 and SL2S did and that almost got me into hot water)

3. I still prefer my Canon flash because its dials are robust.

There are always little things 😉 but a dead camera is severe.