Military engravings

[dubois pierre]

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Strange military engravings on this Leica IIIc. Probably wrong.

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[romanus53]

at least that unit exists https://www.archivesportaleurope.net/ead-display/-/ead/pl/aicode/DE-1958/type/fa/id/DE-1958_d34369df-e4b1-4555-bde9-91a202f76b16 and Propaganda was one of their tasks so it sounds authentic to me (sorry for all that German language). I don't think that someone who wants to crate some fraude will pick up that name and made such engravings.

Edited April 6, 2022 by romanus53

[jankap]

"Oberkommando der Wehrmacht" was a valuable clue by the decoding of the Enigma coding machine messages. On the camera for me suspect.

Edited April 6, 2022 by jankap

[Guest]

Looks suspicious to me. I don't think anyone associated with that unit would capitalise the "der" on top of the camera. Also, looks like the first letter of "Eigentum" was first omitted, and then added later on top of the existing hyphen. This looks a bit like a job of a counterfeiter without German skills to me. While the hyphens on top can be justified (as in Leitz-Eigentum), the hyphen on the back of the camera is rather strange. 

 

[PG Black nickel]

Bonjour Pierre,

Belle trouvaille !!

And with the serial number, could you at least have the date and place where it was sent by sending the request to the archives of Leitz, although it seems to me that they do not answer this kind of request anymore...

Philippe

[250swb]

Looks a little suspicious to me as well, especially with 'Berlin' as well, somebody has over-egged the pudding. I mean it's like 'if found please return to Oberkommando Der Wehrmacht - Berlin Office'.

[wizard]

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"Oberkommando-Der-Wehrmacht Eigentum" in German language would not be spelled using hyphens and, more importantly, "Der" (which is the male definitive article) would not be spelled with a capital "D". Moreover, the term "Amtsgruppe" strikes me as unusual, at least for the period under consideration. So if you ask me, yes, it's a fake engraving.

[jankap]

Wehrmacht is female....., so Die Wehrmacht. The genitive (because Oberkommando) of the female "die" is "der", but in capital .... ????

[wizard]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb jankap:

The genitive (because Oberkommando) of the female "die" is "der", but in capital .... ????

Which is what I said. A German native speaker would never spell it like this.

[jankap]

Sorry, the spelling of "Oberkommando der Wehrmacht" is correct. The word "der" written in capital is unusual, but possible. The translation of the text would be "High command of the army". The word "der" stands for "of the" (genitive).

By the way not much masculine here. "Das Oberkommando " so neuter. "Die Wehrmacht" so feminine. One wonders.🙄

Edited April 6, 2022 by jankap

[dubois pierre]

6 hours ago, PG Black nickel said:

 

And with the serial number, could you at least have the date and place where it was sent by sending the request to the archives of Leitz, although it seems to me that they do not answer this kind of request anymore...

Unfortunately this type of engraving done in-house was not listed at Leitz. Reason why it is always difficult to give authenticity on the latter.

 

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[tranquilo67]

1 hour ago, dubois pierre said:

Unfortunately this type of engraving done in-house was not listed at Leitz. Reason why it is always difficult to give authenticity on the latter.

 

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Hi,

If authentic, either the delivery records should show something related to it ,or a strong proof of that military delivery/usage should support it.

If not, sorry for saying this but, my personal approach is that the "default value" is non-authentic. It's like a defaced camera. To get a wartime Leica is relatively easy (and then deface or engrave something) but the delivery records should support in someway the military delivery (in one way or another, you can check my well-known article about my Wehrmacht lens: https://tertuliadelmanuela.wordpress.com/2018/07/03/the-history-of-a-lens/).

Best wishes,

Augusto

[AndreasG]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb wizard:

A German native speaker would never spell it like this.

So do I as a native German speaker, this is no German language/grammar, the hyphens are not correct, same for the capitalised "D".

Edited April 6, 2022 by AndreasG

[sabears]

Well known fakes... sold at an Auction in GB some years ago...

[Guest]

9 hours ago, wizard said:

Which is what I said. A German native speaker would never spell it like this.

And what I said even before you 🙂

[jerzy]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb sabears:

Well known fakes... sold at an Auction in GB some years ago..

if you mean SAS auction from July 2015 - this particular camera was not there. They sold a batch of approx 50 Leica with fantasy engravings, but they advertised them as well accordingly, as being not genuine. I have a list of cameras offered at that time, I believe I posted this list asd well here years ago.

[dubois pierre]

After verification this camera was sold on 25/07/2021 in GB and here is the original description of the sale. 
This Leica IIIc travels a lot because it can be found on ebay today (334386466356). Obviously the seller leaves doubt about 
the authenticity of these engravings.Sale ends today.

"Leica IIIc chrome, serial no. 373306, with Leitz Elmar f/4 90mm lens, black, serial no. 518223, body, F-G, lacking base plate, lens, G, some internal haze Note: Camera has spurious markings to body and lens "Oberkommando-Der-Wehrmacht Eigentum" and "Berlin" Note: Lot imported under Temporary Admission. 5% UK import VAT will be charged on the ‘hammer’ and 20% UK VAT will be charged on the ‘buyer’s premium’ and invoiced on an inclusive basis under UK Margin Scheme rules. chrome, serial no. 373306, with Leitz Elmar f/4 90mm lens, black, serial no. 518223, body, F-G, lacking base plate, lens, G, some internal haze Note: Camera has spurious markings to body and lens "Oberkommando-Der-Wehrmacht Eigentum" and "Berlin"".

[wizard]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Studienkamera:

And what I said even before you 🙂

Correct. I just added that the spelling "Der" is incorrect in German (unless it stands at the beginning of a sentence, which is not the case here).

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[dubois pierre]

This leica was sold on ebay today for 805 euros. A little expensive for a camera without sole, with false engravings and not functional🤔.

[pop]

The Germans at the time in question did not outsource their work to foreigners, least of all to foreigners who did not speak German. The engravings are all wrong.