28 Summilux vs. 28 Summicron Asph V2

[84bravo]

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I have the Summilux and a couple of versions of the Elmarit. The Summilux is in a class of its own. However, it is quite large and heavy. All of the 28 Elmarits I've tried were very good lenses (except the V2 pre-asph). I have not used the 28 Summicron, but I would assume that it is significantly lighter than the Summilux.

It really comes down to size and weight for me. My typical work bag is an M10-R and M10-P with 28 f1.4, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.4 and 90mm f2. Although lighter than a DSLR kit, it gets pretty heavy fast. I often swap out the 28 and 90 for lighter 2.8 versions.

If weight and size is a question for you, I would suggest trying the 7Artisans 28mm f1.4 to see if f1.4 and the size is worth it for you. If it is, then you'll know right away and you can sell the 7A and buy the Summilux. I found that I liked the 1.4 enough that it was worth the size and weight and I replaced it with the Summilux. The Summilux is a better lens, but not by much.

Edited October 2, 2022 by 84bravo

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[01af]

Both the 28 mm Summicron-M and Summilux-M Asph lenses are equally marvellous in terms of optical performamce. The Summilux is faster, which is a good thing—but then, it also is bigger, heavier, has more viewfinder blockage and an unwieldy filter size (for those who actually use filters), which are less-than-good things. So, it's the Summicron for me.

[Huss]

2 hours ago, 84bravo said:

I have the Summilux and a couple of versions of the Elmarit. The Summilux is in a class of its own. However, it is quite large and heavy. All of the 28 Elmarits I've tried were very good lenses (except the V2 pre-asph). I have not used the 28 Summicron, but I would assume that it is significantly lighter than the Summilux.

It really comes down to size and weight for me. My typical work bag is an M10-R and M10-P with 28 f1.4, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.4 and 90mm f2. Although lighter than a DSLR kit, it gets pretty heavy fast. I often swap out the 28 and 90 for lighter 2.8 versions.

If weight and size is a question for you, I would suggest trying the 7Artisans 28mm f1.4 to see if f1.4 and the size is worth it for you. If it is, then you'll know right away and you can sell the 7A and buy the Summilux. I found that I liked the 1.4 enough that it was worth the size and weight and I replaced it with the Summilux. The Summilux is a better lens, but not by much.

I had the 28 Elmarit Asph v1 and the 7A 28 1.4.  Both optically were very good, but frankly I really disliked using the 7A due to its size and weight.  But as a film shooter I wanted a little more speed, so the Summicron 28v2 was the very happy medium for me.  I sold off the other two lenses.

FYI the 7A had the typical issue of focusing way past infinity at the hard stop even though it was accurate via the rangefinder.  Compact lenses make the Leica M series cameras much more enjoyable to use, and sometimes I think I should have just used the 28 Elmarit and left it at that!

[DBAUDUI1]

Hello, 

I have had the summicron 28 V1 and V2 and I used them quite a lot. Eventually I have sold them for a summilux 28, which I find to be exceptionally good. It shines wide open and at all apertures actually. I use it to take pictures of jazz musicians on stage in very difficult light where it provides very nice picture with a lot of pop, 3D, which I did not have with the summicron 28. Also I find it provides sharpness, micro contrast, bokeh, resistance to flare at the very best level Leica lenses can produce; to me better than the summicron 28 which gives sharp but with less woaw effect than the summilux. I use it also with the same pleasure for street and architectural pictures, where it delivers lots of details and micro contrasts, true colour... It is really a summilux lens, on par with the summilux 50 and maybe better than the 35 summilux, which is also quite an experience (more DOF and POP  at wider aperture for the 28). The summilux 28 vignettes at 1.4 but to me it hads a lot of quality to the pictures wide open. Vignetting disappears as you close the diaphrgam, which gives you the best of both worlds

Recently I bought also the summaron 28 (latest) which is also exceptionally good, sharp, colorful,  contrasty  and compact and is a perfect companion to the summilux 28. This one vignettes at 5.6, what is impossible to get with the summilux 28 and which gives the special touch the summaron. Previously I had the old E39 screw mount summaron 28, but I find the new one better to take pictures with (better contrast, sharpness quality of the colors) . I think my old summaron was a bit hazy but sharp, which kept my interest to try the new model with its better coating and clean glass. Also the new summaron 28  is  a true M lens now, which is reconized by the leica M digital as such.

 

Best regards.

Dominique

[fbonde]

My Favorite go to lens by far. Back in the days i used the FLE 35mm almost 90% at the time. But for the last 2 years or so I have used the 28 lux alot. I do use it at 1.4 to events in low light (opera, concerts etc) and 5.6/8 for landscape. Love that lens. Well balanced on the M body. Its heavy yes, but absolutely workable. 

 

 

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[tom0511]

I now have shot 2 years with Summilux and some times with the SummicronII which Inadded some months ago. For some reason the Summilux at wider apartures shows purple fringing on the M11 which it did not show on the M10r. The Summicron is clearly better in this respect. I also prefer the size of the Summicron.

My plan was to replace the Lux with the Cron. However for some reason  its hard for me to let go the Summilux. Its a special look in the images from the Summilux (specially wide open), very ‚alife‘ , while the Summicron looks more balanced without any weaknesses, but maybe a little bit more boaring.

size wise the Summicron fits the M system better IMO, but the Summilux is still ok.

I know, very subjective words.

The Summarit is great for outside, but I find f5.6 quite limited when the light gets low or if you shoot inside the house.

 

[hdmesa]

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10 hours ago, Steven said:

Can you update your thoughts on this ? 

Also interested in their response.

For me, I prefer the smaller size of the Cron, but only because I went with the Safari version with the built-in hood (the matte black version is out there as well at higher cost). The hoods on both current 28 Lux and 28 Cron are way too big for me. I hated leaving the hood threads exposed on the Lux if I didn't want to use the hood.

For IQ, the Lux and Cron both have a look wide open – but I prefer the Cron at the moment. There is something smoother about the rendering in general which reminds me of my old 6x7 medium format Fujifilm fixed lens rangefinders. Impossible to quantify in writing without getting picked apart by those who may disagree. But the smoothness of the 28 Cron pairs well with the 50 Cron v5. Both are extremely sharp but have lower contrast for high frequency details. Just a very calm render from both the Crons without many optical errors to distract.

Keeping the kit minimal and compact this time around. M11 sold (new M6 incoming). CV 35 1.5 being replaced by CV 35 1.4 II SC.

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28 Summicron at f/2:

[Marckyokay]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Also interested in their response.

For me, I prefer the smaller size of the Cron, but only because I went with the Safari version with the built-in hood (the matte black version is out there as well at higher cost). The hoods on both current 28 Lux and 28 Cron are way too big for me. I hated leaving the hood threads exposed on the Lux if I didn't want to use the hood.

For IQ, the Lux and Cron both have a look wide open – but I prefer the Cron at the moment. There is something smoother about the rendering in general which reminds me of my old 6x7 medium format Fujifilm fixed lens rangefinders. Impossible to quantify in writing without getting picked apart by those who may disagree. But the smoothness of the 28 Cron pairs well with the 50 Cron v5. Both are extremely sharp but have lower contrast for high frequency details. Just a very calm render from both the Crons without many optical errors to distract.

Keeping the kit minimal and compact this time around. M11 sold (new M6 incoming). CV 35 1.5 being replaced by CV 35 1.4 II SC.

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That kit is fire, I'm loving it!

[roelandinho]

19 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Also interested in their response.

For me, I prefer the smaller size of the Cron, but only because I went with the Safari version with the built-in hood (the matte black version is out there as well at higher cost). The hoods on both current 28 Lux and 28 Cron are way too big for me. I hated leaving the hood threads exposed on the Lux if I didn't want to use the hood.

For IQ, the Lux and Cron both have a look wide open – but I prefer the Cron at the moment. There is something smoother about the rendering in general which reminds me of my old 6x7 medium format Fujifilm fixed lens rangefinders. Impossible to quantify in writing without getting picked apart by those who may disagree. But the smoothness of the 28 Cron pairs well with the 50 Cron v5. Both are extremely sharp but have lower contrast for high frequency details. Just a very calm render from both the Crons without many optical errors to distract.

Keeping the kit minimal and compact this time around. M11 sold (new M6 incoming). CV 35 1.5 being replaced by CV 35 1.4 II SC.

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28 Summicron at f/2:

I have the 35mm Nokton 1.4 ii at the moment and am curious about the new 1.5 version. Are you changing it to get a more vintage look (something different than your other lenses) in the 1.4 version, or is there something in the rendering of the 1.5 that you don’t like? 

[fil-m]

Despite my limited 1-day experience with the 28mm both Summicron and Summilux, I felt like it is again the same tradeoff or "dilemma" between the two lines of lens: 

- Summicron (compared to Summilux): higher sharpness, less optical aberrations like CA and purple fringing, less distortion, more consistent edges, more compact, less pricey 

- Summilux Asph (compared to Summicron): unique images at 1.4 with Summilux signature + the opposite of the above ie softer in general, more CA/PF, more distortion and heavier, larger

I mostly use Summicron's 35/50 for practical street shooting. The Cron is easier to carry and handle when I walk with my kids etc plus shooting at f2/2.8 gives good separation and is less prone to focusing errors, while pushing me to pay more attention to geometry and "content".

Still, I can't deny that a Summilux enables more possibilities while making images that carry more emotions "out of the box" at 1.4. And if that's the intention, IMO its bulk is a manageable compromise and that's coming from someone who generally struggles with big lenses. Indeed I recently acquired a Summilux 24mm (similar dimensions to the 28mm) and despite my initial reluctance, I really like how it handles + I also do like the creativity that a wide-aperture wide-angle lens enables! 

[hdmesa]

37 minutes ago, roelandinho said:

I have the 35mm Nokton 1.4 ii at the moment and am curious about the new 1.5 version. Are you changing it to get a more vintage look (something different than your other lenses) in the 1.4 version, or is there something in the rendering of the 1.5 that you don’t like? 

The 35 1.5 would be perfect if not for some midframe softness wide open that goes away by f/4. It didn't bother me until I realized I was consistently putting my subjects in that area, halfway between the center and the corner of the frame. I still recommend the lens because it's close in performance to the 35 Lux FLE but the bokeh is smoother if you like that, which most people do. Jimmy Cheng has two videos on YouTube linked below that compare them directly. I like the Lux bokeh a bit more since the bokeh is more structured and therefore (to me at least) more interesting. So yes, if I'm not going to get good sharpness off center wide open, I might as well pursue a lens with more character. Or I may go with something like the Ultron that is less about rendering and would be sharper off center.

• Lux 1.4 pre-ASPH v2
• 35 Cron pre-ASPH (any version)
• CV 35 f/2 Ultron II
• CV 35 f/1.4 Nokton II SC
• LLL 35 f/2 8 Element replica (which no doubt will require a trip to DAG for focus and optical alignment, and rangefinder alignment at infinity)

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by hdmesa

[tom0511]

Am 21.4.2023 um 10:16 schrieb Steven:

Can you update your thoughts on this ? 

I admit to not have shot that much with Leica M lately, but I can say that for some reason I hesistate to sell the 28 Lux.

I did some comparisons (unscientific) and in many light situations the difference betwen the lenses was small if any (I could detect).

Maybe the 28 Summicron shows even less weaknesses, but then the Summilux might procuce images with "a little more life and character", very nice midtones, and the interesting option to shoot wide angle with shallow DOF.

...and then there is the 28/5.6 as well, small, lovely, a little smeared corners, but with very lovely overall image look.

[fil-m]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

I’ve had a wife for 15 years. It’s the 35mm focal length and we’re happy. We’ve tried everything together. It works, we get along not matter what life throws at us. 
But two years ago, I found a mistress. I never thought it would happen, but we’ve been leaving a real passion. It’s 28mm.
 

i’ve tried almost all of them, and haven’t found the perfect balance like i did with 35. Yet. 
Here’s my view on the leica line up. My two most used one for the past two year have been the two extremes. 
 

5% of the time, the summilux. It’s the one that does it all. Gorgeous, cinematic rendering wide open, and it draws beautifully when closed down. It’s problem is the size. Too big for me for everyday life, and I don’t enjoy its ergonomics on an M body. It’s fine on an SL. Therefore, I use that lens mainly when I go on a trip exclusively to take photos, to war zones or other complicated areas where I can’t afford to miss a shot once I’ve made it all the way there. Every photo that comes out of it is spectacular to my eyes. 
 

95% of the time, my every day carry is the Summaron. I feel a real passion for that lens. I’m deep in love with the way it renders, at any aperture but especially wide open. It’s also perfect for street photography and zone focusing because it’s small and the scale is really well and precisely engrave on the barrel of the lens. When the Summaron is mounted to your camera, there’s no excuse to leave your M at home. It’s a pocketable, point and shoot beast image maker. But it has an obvious limitation, which led me to try the two 28s in between. 
 

The Elmarit is great. Nothing to complain. It’s rendering is what is the closest to the Q, in my eyes. Super sharp, with a real life 3D pop effect. I like it a lot. Size is excellent too. But most of the times, if it’s just to gain two stops, I’ll prefer going out with the Summaron and enjoy it more. 
 

Then comes the summicron. On paper, it ticks all the boxes for the perfect everyday carry. Except I just can’t fall in love with it. The images it produces are clean and sharp, but they give me mo emotions, compared to the summilux and the Summaron. I don’t know how to explain it. For this reason, I’ll almost always choose a smaller, 35 1.4 with an extra stop as an everyday carry. It makes me sad. Lately, I’ve been thinking about trying the VM ultron. I’ve been seeing more character and emotion in the images I’ve seen from it. The only problem is that I don’t love the way it looks. 

Without the hood, the Sx 28 becomes more compact, though obviously not the easy-to-carry everyday lens. I no longer remember how recessed is the front element ie how exposed it becomes to external risks (and flare) without the hood but I am raising it as a possibility because I actually carry my Noct 50/1 without the hood - call me crazy but it makes it much more manageable to me without the bulky thing. I obviously have to be more careful but that's a risk I accept  

There are also two versions of the Cron 28, the first Asph generation is known to be less contrasty and sharp, more film oriented. How does that brings more emotions to images I don't know, maybe there is an impact (but won't make it a Summilux obviously)

Any way can't help beyond those average tips because, as you kind of say, in the Leica 28mm "family" there are more compromises between the different members, from the bulky but amazing Summilux to the compact, beautiful but slow Summaron 

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, Steven said:

I’ve had a wife for 15 years. It’s the 35mm focal length and we’re happy. We’ve tried everything together. It works, we get along not matter what life throws at us. 
But two years ago, I found a mistress. I never thought it would happen, but we’ve been leaving a real passion. It’s 28mm.
 

i’ve tried almost all of them, and haven’t found the perfect balance like i did with 35. Yet. 
Here’s my view on the leica line up. My two most used one for the past two year have been the two extremes. 
 

5% of the time, the summilux. It’s the one that does it all. Gorgeous, cinematic rendering wide open, and it draws beautifully when closed down. It’s problem is the size. Too big for me for everyday life, and I don’t enjoy its ergonomics on an M body. It’s fine on an SL. Therefore, I use that lens mainly when I go on a trip exclusively to take photos, to war zones or other complicated areas where I can’t afford to miss a shot once I’ve made it all the way there. Every photo that comes out of it is spectacular to my eyes. 
 

95% of the time, my every day carry is the Summaron. I feel a real passion for that lens. I’m deep in love with the way it renders, at any aperture but especially wide open. It’s also perfect for street photography and zone focusing because it’s small and the scale is really well and precisely engrave on the barrel of the lens. When the Summaron is mounted to your camera, there’s no excuse to leave your M at home. It’s a pocketable, point and shoot beast image maker. But it has an obvious limitation, which led me to try the two 28s in between. 
 

The Elmarit is great. Nothing to complain. It’s rendering is what is the closest to the Q, in my eyes. Super sharp, with a real life 3D pop effect. I like it a lot. Size is excellent too. But most of the times, if it’s just to gain two stops, I’ll prefer going out with the Summaron and enjoy it more. 
 

Then comes the summicron. On paper, it ticks all the boxes for the perfect everyday carry. Except I just can’t fall in love with it. The images it produces are clean and sharp, but they give me mo emotions, compared to the summilux and the Summaron. I don’t know how to explain it. For this reason, I’ll almost always choose a smaller, 35 1.4 with an extra stop as an everyday carry. It makes me sad. Lately, I’ve been thinking about trying the VM ultron. I’ve been seeing more character and emotion in the images I’ve seen from it. The only problem is that I don’t love the way it looks. 

I consider the 28 Cron a blank slate. The lens doesn't do any of the work, I have to. It's challenging to use because it gives back to me exactly what I give it.

Have you considered shooting 3200 speed b&w for low light so you never have to take the 28 Summaron off your camera? It can still be shot in bright daylight with a red filter.

 

TMAX 3200, B+W light red filter, 28 Summaron

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Edited April 23, 2023 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

ive been really wanting to try the ultron as an alternative to the summicron. It seems to have a stronger signature, and maybe a little more vignetting too, which I think could be a benefit. 

The Voigtlander 28 Ultron II? It's is a bit of an oddball design externally. I'm not a big fan of the "traffic cone" lens shape that is thicker at the mount and gets smaller toward the end of the lens. Using the Voigtlander LH-4N round hood makes it look better (the recommended LH-12 hood makes the lens look an air raid siren to me). The focus tab is wonderfully large and the focus action is incredibly smooth.

The character at f/2 and close distances has some swirl and the background in some scenes can be sharper toward the edges, and it has very heavy vignetting. But stopped down, it's essentially a 28 APO with crazy high microcontrast and resolving ability. It also has a minimum focus distance of 0.5m, which may or may not bother you when using a film camera.

 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Yes, I totally agree that the design is ugly, and that’s a huge factor for me. But at this point I’m so uninterested by the way the summicron paints that I was wondering if the ultron would give a more “vintage look” as its name suggests. 

When “vintage” is used by Voigtlander, it usually refers to the external design, but occasionally both. The Ultron does have more character than the Summicron with regards to vignetting and up close rendering at f/2. Stopped down the Ultron is more modern than the Summicron.

[Al Brown]

Had the 28 Ultron II and sold it. Waaaaaay too boring despite the proper 3D pop and flawless render. I have recommended it many times to many members here but for me, it lacks the quintessential pixie dust.
I have to check out all three 28 Summarons & clones.

Photo: M10-P Reporter + 28 Ultron II coded as the 28 cron wide open in Paris.

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Edited May 4, 2023 by Al Brown

[mmradman]

20 minutes ago, Steven said:

Bought the Ultron last Friday after our chat. Shot 22 rolls of Portra, developed them at home, and scanned them tonight.

I need to edit the files to see how I feel, but my first impression after viewing the images is that the lens is spectacular. It's everything I didn't find in the Summicron. My Summilux, Elmarit, and Summaron all have a strong signature. The Summicron felt too dull to me, but this Ultron is quite the opposite. Great look at F2, and as you said, it's apoesque when closed down. A bit too contrasty for me, but nothing I should not be able to fix in post. Besides that, it has an insane amount of micro contrast and 3D pop. Reminds me of the Q2.

I didn't hate the cone shape in the end. I think the lens feels premium and it feels much smaller than my ex Summicron V1. No need for hood, it resists flare like crazy too. I think it will stay. What a bargain of a lens. 

Coming from you Steven it is high praise, may consider it to supplement my 28mm Summilux as lightweight option. Oh, and welcome back.

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[insomnia]

Well, the Summilux is another deal - but I'd never ever opt for the Summicron knowing the CV Ultron II, better at everything despite vignette. 

[hdmesa]

39 minutes ago, insomnia said:

Well, the Summilux is another deal - but I'd never ever opt for the Summicron knowing the CV Ultron II, better at everything despite vignette. 

What goes hand-in-hand with the Ultron's vignetting is the bokeh at f/2 has a tendency to become less blurred toward the edges of the frame when the subject is at mid-distances. The Cron is smooth to the edges at the same distances and does not have the "swirl" of the Ultron. Some may consider the swirl and bokeh unevenness to be "character", others may not. The vignetting may also be considered character with an artistic purpose. Vignetting added in post never looks as good as the lenses optical vignetting, IMO. Overall, the Ultron has a more active bokeh wide open and higher microcontrast stopped down, while the Chron is more calming wide open and stopped down both.

Neither of these lenses are optically better overall, they are just different. Value is another topic entirely, and we know the CV wins that contest easily.

It won't be long before Voigtlander makes a 28 1.4 with a 0.5m close focus that rivals the 28 Lux.

Edited May 4, 2023 by hdmesa