Questions about Leica M lens performance on M11 (new information on Reid Reviews site, 3/22)

[Guest]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I'll try to be brief, to get past moderation policies on this forum that led to the removal of an earlier post.

Reid Reviews has a new review, posted today, on Lens performance of 21 and 28 lenses on M11 (moderator - can I say this?).

His findings are relevant to anybody considering buying a M11 (moderator - can I say this?).

For many, including yours truly, the big selling points for M remain usability and rangefinder, industrial design, small compact size, strong ecosystem, sustainability. Quite a lot of strong reasons, to be honest (moderator - I am not quoting from Sean Reid, those are my words).

I am getting close to cancelling my M11 order as the whole proposition of "latest M body is always best for M lenses" may be coming into question from an optical performance point of view (moderator - can I say this?). The only reason why I haven't done this yet is 1. seems foolish to act in the spur of the moment 2. sadness about what could have been - really would have enjoyed the M11 quality of life improvements.

My reasoning: If image quality is not progressing as expected (I am not allowed to elaborate here, go to Reid Reviews and look at the images behind the paywall, you don't even have to read his polite explanations), the (for me) $5k upgrade price from M10-P to M11 (including grip, EVF, ...) is not worth it. Considering that the next generation of cameras (based on the new Sony sensors) will put the M11 in the rear view mirror from an IQ perspective and the best ones will have super fast electronic shutter, likely late '22/early '23, it's just not worth it if Leica did not achieve with the M11 the #1 goal of prioritizing M lens performance above everything else (e.g. I would have gladly done without the "triple resolution" marketing gimmick).

Wishful thinking: M10-R optical performance  in a M11 body would have been amazing!

Sorry about the cryptic dancing around, what the issues are, and why I am so upset. Again please look yourself if you have the means to access the RR site. Obviously, you may come to different conclusions. FWIW - it's not just Reid Reviews findings, I only have Summilux and Noctilux lenses and they already purple fringe significantly on older bodies, M11 seems to make that worse (reports in several forums, e.g. Noctilux 75mm f/1.25), and in my experience at some point removing the purple seams overwhelms some software (C1 gives up earlier, Lightroom is more capable) - to the point where I don't know if it would not become an additional incompatibility between my Leica lens collection and the M11.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Printmaker]

Perhaps it is time to say enough is enough. Your M10-P is an amazing camera as are your Summilux and Noctilux lenses. Unless you are printing to wall size... don't worry, be happy.

But if you absolutely need the higher resolution and want to loose the bottom plate, and want to kiss $5k away, well then use software to cancel the fringe.

Whenever I get a bad case of GAS, I think back to my first Leica — a M2R. When the M4 came out, I paid more than I could afford for the upgrade gaining only a rapid rewind crank and a 135 frame line when I didn't even own a 135 lens (at that time, 1969 or 1970).But then again, I used that M4 for the next 40 years.

I don't currently subscribe to Sean Reid but have in the past. He is a thorough and honest reviewer. I trust his opinions and renew my subscription whenever I'm thinking about feeding my GAS.

[Photoworks]

Why should read Sean Reid.

I have the camera and I want to make my own opinion.

Most of negative question comes from people that didn't use the camera. The camera is good for my need. but we are all different. I am a professional and much my equipment to the limits.

I feel that the firmware can be considered still beta. IQ can be different once updates are in and all programs have proper profiles. Lightroom needs camera raw update.

Just keep in mind that higher performance sensors reflect more character and qualities of all lenses. Old and New.

For my need I am happy not to have the M10-P anymore! could not take the burned highlights anymore or underexposing everything 2 stops to save the exposure.

[lct]

Don't like much the M11's smeared corners with Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 and Skopar 21/4 in the last Reid review. Any experience with those same lenses folks?

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, lct said:

Don't like much the M11's smeared corners with Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 and Skopar 21/4 in the last Reid review. Any experience with those same lenses folks?

Here is my educated guess cheat sheet so far, trying to stack rank all M10 models and M11, including Nikon Z based on my own experience (assuming same lens, e.g. older 28):

Corner quality observed on some older/and or shorter lenses, cameras best to worst: M10M > M10R >= M10P >> SL2 >= M11 > Nikon Z
How to read the differences: >> 1 f-stop better, > 2/3 f-stop better, >= less than 1/3 f-stop
I.e. M10R is a bit more than 1 2/3 f-stop better than Nikon Z = M10R sharpness at f/2.8 ~ Nikon Z at f/5.6-8

Now, Leica notably has stated that they would try to address M11 Noctilux purple fringing in firmware - meaning similar approach to what one would do in post processing, masking, but not resolving the issue (i.e. loss of resolution and color fidelity can't be avoided once the purple fringing is there instead of what the pixel value would have been otherwise).

Noise: Per pixel seems to be M10M >>>> M10P >= M10R => M11
Scaled down to same image size (24MP): M10M >>>> M10R >= M11 >= M10P
(>>>> difference for M10M = on a different planet ...)

Handheld shake: I am honestly not brave enough to make any statement (again). Some of us believe that there are differences between M models, and this could be another evaluation criterion (if faster shutter is required solely to avoid shake without stabilization, then that would drive up required ISO sensitivity = noise; for those of us who subscribe to this point of view).

I always resisted SL2 in part because of a concern about "inferior image quality ROI on M lenses". That's what got me to buy my first M (M10-P): I had bought a Noctilux f/0.95 and wanted to do better compared to my Nikon z7 ... Now it looks like we are coming full circle where image quality is not necessarily a pro for the most recent M11 anymore?

Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest

[Kwesi]

6 hours ago, mzbe said:

Now, Leica notably has stated that they would try to address M11 Noctilux purple fringing in firmware

Do you have a link or reference to support this statement?

[Erato]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Le téléphone arabe

[Kwesi]

10 hours ago, mzbe said:

I'll try to be brief, to get past moderation policies on this forum that led to the removal of an earlier post.

Reid Reviews has a new review, posted today, on Lens performance of 21 and 28 lenses on M11 (moderator - can I say this?).

His findings are relevant to anybody considering buying a M11 (moderator - can I say this?).

For many, including yours truly, the big selling points for M remain usability and rangefinder, industrial design, small compact size, strong ecosystem, sustainability. Quite a lot of strong reasons, to be honest (moderator - I am not quoting from Sean Reid, those are my words).

I am getting close to cancelling my M11 order as the whole proposition of "latest M body is always best for M lenses" may be coming into question from an optical performance point of view (moderator - can I say this?). The only reason why I haven't done this yet is 1. seems foolish to act in the spur of the moment 2. sadness about what could have been - really would have enjoyed the M11 quality of life improvements.

My reasoning: If image quality is not progressing as expected (I am not allowed to elaborate here, go to Reid Reviews and look at the images behind the paywall, you don't even have to read his polite explanations), the (for me) $5k upgrade price from M10-P to M11 (including grip, EVF, ...) is not worth it. Considering that the next generation of cameras (based on the new Sony sensors) will put the M11 in the rear view mirror from an IQ perspective and the best ones will have super fast electronic shutter, likely late '22/early '23, it's just not worth it if Leica did not achieve with the M11 the #1 goal of prioritizing M lens performance above everything else (e.g. I would have gladly done without the "triple resolution" marketing gimmick).

Wishful thinking: M10-R optical performance  in a M11 body would have been amazing!

Sorry about the cryptic dancing around, what the issues are, and why I am so upset. Again please look yourself if you have the means to access the RR site. Obviously, you may come to different conclusions. FWIW - it's not just Reid Reviews findings, I only have Summilux and Noctilux lenses and they already purple fringe significantly on older bodies, M11 seems to make that worse (reports in several forums, e.g. Noctilux 75mm f/1.25), and in my experience at some point removing the purple seams overwhelms some software (C1 gives up earlier, Lightroom is more capable) - to the point where I don't know if it would not become an additional incompatibility between my Leica lens collection and the M11.

As well intentioned as this post may be, honestly, this is how rumors start. 

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, mzbe said:

I always resisted SL2 in part because of a concern about "inferior image quality ROI on M lenses". That's what got me to buy my first M (M10-P): I had bought a Noctilux f/0.95 and wanted to do better compared to my Nikon z7 ... Now it looks like we are coming full circle where image quality is not necessarily a pro for the most recent M11 anymore?

Stop, just spot staring this non founded information.

I have used the Noctilux 0.95 on M10-P, SL2, z7,A7R4 and S1H. 
Not sure why the z7 or A7r4 are even on this list, M lenses are just ok on them , side and corner performance is not good.

S1H is part of the L system, but sharpness is not as good as Leica.

The best IQ with this lens came out of the SL2 in my daily use. I no longer have the M10-P, upgraded to M10-R and M11. I would not say the 0.95 is better on 24MP. this lens is best with SL2.
Every lens on a higher megapixel camera will show more of the lens qualities.

Like any other Lens, this is a tool and you need to learn to use it to your advantage. 

Purple fringing is one of the character marks of this lens. It will appear on specular highlight, not every image with have them.
When I shoot I am aware of it and if I don't want purple fringing I just close the F-stop 1 or 2 click minimizing the effect of it. Plenty of character remains in the photo with noctilux. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Do you have a link or reference to support this statement?

of course: 

direct quote from Leica support, if you decide to believe the poster -

Quote-----

Many thanks for your feedback.

The chromatic aberrations are currently a normal behavior of the M11.

Future firmware updates will bring i.provements here, please be patient.

Unquote------

Please note that this is not the only source of purple fringing examples. It is the only source of Leica acknowledging the issue to the point where they even promise to "paint it over" in future firmware.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

Stop, just spot staring this non founded information.

I have used the Noctilux 0.95 on M10-P, SL2, z7,A7R4 and S1H. 
Not sure why the z7 or A7r4 are even on this list, M lenses are just ok on them , side and corner performance is not good.

S1H is part of the L system, but sharpness is not as good as Leica.

The best IQ with this lens came out of the SL2 in my daily use. I no longer have the M10-P, upgraded to M10-R and M11. I would not say the 0.95 is better on 24MP. this lens is best with SL2.
Every lens on a higher megapixel camera will show more of the lens qualities.

Like any other Lens, this is a tool and you need to learn to use it to your advantage. 

Purple fringing is one of the character marks of this lens. It will appear on specular highlight, not every image with have them.
When I shoot I am aware of it and if I don't want purple fringing I just close the F-stop 1 or 2 click minimizing the effect of it. Plenty of character remains in the photo with noctilux. 

I know the Noctilux well on my M10-P and my Nikon z7. Agree that the 50mm f/0.95 can show significant purple fringing, and that an experienced photographer can find workarounds.

Regarding "not founded information" - I provided a link above. Source = Leica (in writing, albeit quoted from this forum, not a mail I personally received, have to trust the other person).

My concern is that if you take worse fringing AND higher MP count, the post processing workarounds for purple fringing may work in fewer cases satisfactorily, as I have observed that the thicker the magenta/green border (in number of compromised pixels), the harder it is to remove.

The example I referenced above is based on Nocti 1.25 - which is generally a better corrected lens than the 0.95 ...

I never said that the 0.95 is better with 24MP. M11 performance may be due to the double stacked BSI sensor or similar. For the record: All examples of 0.95 on M10R seem to indicate *less* aberrations, despite thicker sensor glass and *higher MP* count (compared to M10-P).

I never mentioned A7R4.

I am sure good images can be made with the M11 shooting JPG at f/11 with 18MP. This is still better than cameras I had 20 years ago ...

Edited March 23, 2022 by Guest

[Kwesi]

16 minutes ago, mzbe said:

of course: 

direct quote from Leica support, if you decide to believe the poster -

Quote-----

Many thanks for your feedback.

The chromatic aberrations are currently a normal behavior of the M11.

Future firmware updates will bring i.provements here, please be patient.

Unquote------

Please note that this is not the only source of purple fringing examples. It is the only source of Leica acknowledging the issue to the point where they even promise to "paint it over" in future firmware.

Thanks for this.

I myself have seen posted here in the M11 Images thread pretty strong purple fringing occurring with the 28 lux in harsh sunlight.

I wasn't aware that Leica had acknowledged the issue.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...My reasoning: If image quality is not progressing as expected (I am not allowed to elaborate here, go to Reid Reviews and look at the images behind the paywall, you don't even have to read his polite explanations), the (for me) $5k upgrade price from M10-P to M11 (including grip, EVF, ...) is not worth it. Considering that the next generation of cameras (based on the new Sony sensors) will put the M11 in the rear view mirror from an IQ perspective and the best ones will have super fast electronic shutter, likely late '22/early '23, it's just not worth it if Leica did not achieve with the M11 the #1 goal of prioritizing M lens performance above everything else (e.g. I would have gladly done without the "triple resolution" marketing gimmick)...

Sheer unfounded speculation.  As far as I know, none of us can see the future, not even Sean Reid looking through his pay wall. 

Yes, the M10P is a good camera.  Yes, the M11 is a good camera.  Both will continue to be fully capable of making high quality images for a long time.

If the M11 is "not worth it" to you, keep your M10P.

As for Sean Reid and his commentary on the M11 with 21mm and 28mm lenses, this doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for anyone but him.   There are a lot more lenses in use with the M11 than these two focal lengths. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Kwesi]

2 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

As for Sean Reid and his commentary on the M11 with 21mm and 28mm lenses, this doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for anyone but him.

For the record,

I use the 28/2 ASPH v2 (current version) on the M11 with no issues.

[fsprow]

20 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

For the record,

I use the 28/2 ASPH v2 (current version) on the M11 with no issues.

I’ve been using the 28/2.8 Asph (current) on the M11 with beautiful results. High sharpness overall in large prints (30x40”). Love the camera and easily see the difference in 60MP images. 

[wizard]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb mzbe:

M11 seems to make that worse (reports in several forums, e.g. Noctilux 75mm f/1.25), ...

As you have explained yourself, Leica is already working on this, with a view to minimizing those effects. So contrary to what you say, this does not seem to be a M11 inherent problem. Rather, it will be solved by a future software update. So where's the problem? Use your M10P and wait until new software is available for the M11, and then buy the M11. It's as easy as that.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

As for Sean Reid and his commentary on the M11 with 21mm and 28mm lenses, this doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for anyone but him.   There are a lot more lenses in use with the M11 than these two focal lengths. 

Yes, which is why he also tested the 35mm f/2 APO Summicron ASPH, and the 35 APO Lanthar. Again his findings regarding acuity in the corners, comparing M11, M10R, M10M, are valuable, if you are interested in understanding optical performance of the M11 (it's OK if you don't care ...).

I have not seen a comparison of any lens on M11 vs. M10R anywhere that shows equal or better corner sharpness on the M11. There may be such a lens and such a comparison, I cannot claim the opposite?

Regarding reference to Sean Read, he is very objective and I have not seen him use language like "deal breaker" (or anything like that) here. His comparisons are done with great rigor and precision, and he provides meaningful visual samples - your eyes be the judge. Similarly Mathphotographer, the guy works with Swiss precision, of course nobody has to click on his content, if you feel it might spoil the fun you are having with your M11?

[lct]

10 hours ago, mzbe said:

Here is my educated guess cheat sheet so far, trying to stack rank all M10 models and M11, including Nikon Z based on my own experience (assuming same lens, e.g. older 28):

Corner quality observed on some older/and or shorter lenses, cameras best to worst: M10M > M10R >= M10P >> SL2 >= M11

Thank you @mzbe. By "older 28" do you mean the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 below?. Also how would you compare the M11 to M10P and/or M10R re corner quality putting aside M10M and SL2 if i may ask?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, mzbe said:

Similarly Mathphotographer, the guy works with Swiss precision, of course nobody has to click on his content, if you feel it might spoil the fun you are having with your M11?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I remember watching this and thinking that he fails to mention that the M11 image has a color cast whereas the M10-R is essentially neutral. Ofcourse there will. be more color noise in the M11. IMHO, it would have been better to adjust the white balance before drawing this particular conclusion. By the way I subscribe to his channel and find him to be very well balanced and thorough. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Kwesi
added "by the way..."

[wizard]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb mzbe:

I have not seen a comparison of any lens on M11 vs. M10R anywhere that shows equal or better corner sharpness on the M11.

The question is whether your assumption is valid. That is, should there be equal or even better corner sharpness on the M11 with any given lens? Just because there are more pixels doesn't mean that sharpness will improve. Detail resolution may improve IF the quality of the lens allows that. On the other hand, if the quality of any given lens is just good enough for 40MP, you may begin to see some lack of quality in a 60MP image, if zooming into the image far enough. More pixels means more detail information, which possibly results in a little less sharpness under critical inspection. However, if the same magnification factor is used for both the 40MP and 60MP shots, there should be no visible difference.